Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

@hawkeye10,

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sexual relationships ARE a mutual thing, and almost always both parties play some part when things go bad, just like in any relationship. When we go to marriage counseling we are told at the start to stop blaming the other person, to look at ourselves and own what we did wrong. Confusion in sexual consent happen because both parties did wrong, outright invasions of another person might or might not have been prevented if the one who was wronged made better choices, though the violation is not their fault.

In almost all cases other than pure predatory forceful conquest both parties need to come to terms with what they did wrong. As things stand now women get a pass for what they do wrong, they are encouraged to blame men for everything. This sucks, and will never lead to a good result.

I said rape is not sex gone bad. Rape is not a sexual relationship because one of the parties did not grant consent. Since, one party did not grant consent, it was rape. Rape cannot be sex gone bad.

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@hawkeye10,

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, I dont believe that consent problems alone should classify the act as rape

The law always considered non consent the essential aspect of rape--the fact that force was used, or required, simply demonstrated that the act was non consensual.

Requiring force as a component of rape means requiring physical resistance--and that may result in a victim beaten black and blue or even killed. Many victims do not resist out of fear, and, therefore, little force is required by the rapist--but a rape has still occurred.

You simply want less situations where someone could be charged with rape--regardless of whether or not they committed rape. Not just "rape feminists", but the majority of women, and probably men, would not agree with you about that. Current laws reflect current reality--more casual sex takes place today than it did 30 or 40 years ago--and, because women are now seen as more "sexually available", for that reason, more date rape types of rape occur. If you want to go back to the laws of 40 years ago, you'd also go back to a time when more women were expected to be virgins before marriage and male dates generally did take, "No" for an answer because that was the norm.

The best way to keep consent from becoming confused is to communicate with your partner and pay attention to signals from your partner. You put down the notion of encouraging women to say, "Yes", but an enthusiastic "Yes" is the least confused message a woman can give regarding consent.

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I do believe that any couple who engage is sex where the consent becomes confused or where one party comes away feeling violated should get in front of a therapist, and should be compelled to do so by the law

That's not very realistic in a date rape situation where there might not be any ongoing relationship. Also, the person who feels violated might be uncomfortable being around the rapist at all. Rape is a crime, it should be dealt with as a crime.

The legal obligation is on the male to be sure he does have consent. If it is unclear or confused, and he can't ascertain whether she is consenting, he should stop or refrain from sex.

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Sorry reposting my response to Ionus. Formatting was screwed.

Ionus wrote:

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You missed my point. The long term effect of sleeping with the wrong men is sexual humiliation.

Realization that I've only slept with nutcases will result in apparent humiliation and low self-esteem perhaps, but it will be nothing like the psychological trauma a woman has to endure because she was forced into sexual activity against her will.

Even though, in retrospect, I feel "like being raped", I'm aware I did choose to sleep with those men at that time. That sex was not against my will. It was not traumatic at that time. The immediate impact of that sex wasn't devastating for my psyche, even though now I feel a slow gush of humiliation.

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I said higher mammals, which not only means a frontal cortex but ones that have a similar frontal cortex to us.

Animal sex is just that - animal sex, the sole aim of which is to reproduce. Well, biologically speaking, that applies to humans as well, but for us sex is also tied to feelings and emotions. Sex is a special act for us- that's why people light scented candles and put on music, etc., while indulging in it. So you know what, you cannot compare.

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Of course they are allowed to feel good about rape...they survived a very dangerous situation and telling them how much we pity them is not the right attitude.

Actually, different women have different reactions to a traumatic experience like rape. Based on the temperament they are born with (are they stoic/tough?), the life experiences (upbringing, etc.), and the response of their immediate society to their rape, different women will display varying coping mechanisms. Some will overcome much of the hurt, while some will slip into depression, etc.

While women are allowed to feel good about rape (to put it in your words), most of them will naturally not feel good about it. Moreover, there is no evidence to prove that women will feel good about being raped if they'd fantasized about forceful sex/rape.

Sympathizing with victims of rape is not equivalent to pitying them - maybe that's how you see it. If these women are left to believe they had a part to play in that incident, their minds will lead them to a slow death thinking this was their fault.

Counseling and support can help mitigate the psychological repercussions of rape.

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@hawkeye10,

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Start with romance novels, and then we can move on to science if you are not yet convinced.

I can think of Scarlett O' Hara in Gone With the Wind and the lead female character in Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead off the top of my head.

But in a fictitious work of art, anything is possible. Characters are merely dancing to the tunes of the author, and their actions/interactions do not always reflect the thinking of average people.

Both these novels were gravely criticized for faulty characterization, moreover. I'd be skeptical of someone who made conclusions about human psychology based on what they read in novels.

Bring on the science, hawkeye10.

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@spidergal,

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nothing like the psychological trauma a woman has to endure because she was forced into sexual activity against her will.

that might still be what the law in India means by rape, but in America force is only sometimes a part of rape. I do note however how the rape feminists do their very best to let people believe that this is still what American law means by rape, how they claim that current rape victims are due the same sympathy as are those who were victims under the old laws. I further believe that illegal sex with a kid is called rape as well in order to appropriate for women the same level of sympathy that we naturally feel for kids who have been sexually violated by adults.

Rape feminists long ago learned that successfully framing the issue to your advantage goes a long way to winning the argument. However, they I think have gone too far in re-branding rape, where it now includes just about every disagreement women tend to have with men on the subject of sex. They are now experiencing push back, and it is all because they got greedy trying to grab power for women.

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@spidergal,

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Animal sex is just that - animal sex, the sole aim of which is to reproduce. Well, biologically speaking, that applies to humans as well, but for us sex is also tied to feelings and emotions. Sex is a special act for us- that's why people light scented candles and put on music, etc., while indulging in it. So you know what, you cannot compare.

No other type of animal need the father around for two decades or so in order to give the offsprings the best chance of survival and that is the reason for all the crazy emotions over mating that we need to deal with.

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@spidergal,

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But in a fictitious work of art, anything is possible. Characters are merely dancing to the tunes of the author, and their actions/interactions do not always reflect the thinking of average people

these books sell almost always to women, they are designed to speak to female desire, and for generations did so very successfully. When you read these books pay attention to how often women are hunted by men, are manipulated by men, and the sex happens without the female ever saying in words that she wants what ends up happening to her....the level on consent that the rape feminists insist should be written into law and that they "educate" to the young as the morally proper way to enter into sex.

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@firefly,

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The law always considered non consent the essential aspect of rape

the law required a demonstration of non consent, most law demanded some level of resistance that was overcome with force. The law now requires an active affirmation of consent. The difference, which hilariously are still trying to deny, is HUGE.

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@hawkeye10,

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They are now experiencing push back, and it is all because they got greedy trying to grab power for women.

Sorry in my opinion feminists desire power for themselves not power for women as a whole in fact they wish to take away adulthood from women in the name of protecting them from their own actions.

That is in fact is resulting in women being second class citizens.

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@spidergal,

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Moreover, there is no evidence to prove that women will feel good about being raped if they'd fantasized about forceful sex/

You are quite right.

Neither Ionus nor Hawkeye seem to recognize the difference between fantasies and reality. Fantasizing about rape is fully under the control of the person having the fantasy. Rape is a situation which is out of the control of the person being raped. That's a huge difference.

Also, many rape fantasies are not just fantasies about being overpowered or dominated against one's will. Some rape fantasies involve the male being so overcome by the woman's attractiveness and desirability that they cannot control themselves, and they have sex with her despite her protestations--in that type of fantasy, the woman actually has the greater power. Some rape fantasies are also unpleasant, but there are people who continue to have these despite their aversive properties. People have sexual fantasies for all sorts of reasons, including rape fantasies, but that does not translate into a desire to be actually raped.

spidergal, I think Ionus and Hawkeye are trying to justify their own needs to dominate, and, perhaps, justify their own fantasies about raping women. They seem unconcerned with what the woman wants. They think they know what "she really wants". They don't connect with the fact that rape is unwanted sexual intercourse.

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@firefly,

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That's not very realistic in a date rape situation where there might not be any ongoing relationship

Right, but then again I dont think that "date rape" should be a legal matter. If a real rape happens on a date then by all means ring the guy up for rape, but "date rape" in the majority of cases in a couple of drunk or stoned young people who had sex but cant remember who did what or why. Send them both to a therapist, and stop pretending that the girl was violated against her will. It is impossible to know what her will was, and if she has a problem with confused consent happening after drinking or taking drugs then she best not ingest those things.

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@hawkeye10,

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The law now requires an active affirmation of consent.

What's wrong with that?

Common sense should tell a man he should have an "active affirmation of consent" to be sure there is no confusion about whether he has consent.

Seems to me that most states also clearly define non consent. "No means no" is also incorporated into laws--particularly date rape laws.

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@hawkeye10,

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It is impossible to know what her will was, and if she has a problem with confused consent happening after drinking or taking drugs then she best not ingest those things.

If you can't know "what her will was" then you do not have consent. Then the act is possibly rape.

If she is drunk or drugged, and is confused, don't have sex with her.

Why this need to have sex with women who are extremely intoxicated? Why risk a rape charge by doing that?

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@firefly,

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Common sense should tell a man he should have an "active affirmation of consent"

actually, common sense runs the other way. We know through living life that active consent in our interactions with other people is rare. Normally we engage with others on a lower level of consent. So why is sex so special that we need to do the highest level? Why should we demand this when it gets in the way of enjoyment and full fruition of the erotic endeavor?

The answer is because the law now demands it, but I have said before all this does for many of us is to show us that the law is hostile to individuals, to the good life. The law is perhaps something to be feared, but it is not something to take seriously as a guide to right and wrong.

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@hawkeye10,

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that might still be what the law in India means by rape, but in America force is only sometimes a part of rape.

I'm not informed on how the Indian law defines rape. Maybe I'll find out later. But no law can ascertain how a woman feels after being raped. I was merely referring to the mental state of women after being raped. Most women feel terrible after non-consensual sex whether or not it was violent or forceful - here I'm allowing for a little leeway by saying 'most' to fit Ionus' theory about some women deriving sensual pleasure out of sexual assault.

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but in America force is only sometimes a part of rape.

Can the other Americans enunciate this? You seem to be suggesting, hawkeye, that in the US, force is rarely use to inflict sexual assault, and that most of the rape incidents occur because of a miscommunication between the victim and the offender.

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@hawkeye10,

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It is impossible to know what her will was, and if she has a problem with confused consent happening after drinking or taking drugs then she best not ingest those things.

Agree one million percent and the only problem is that the Fireflies of the world do not view women as full adults and therefore males have a special duty to look after their best interest and be in effect their guardian in deciding if they should have sex with you or not.

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@spidergal,

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most of the rape incidents occur because of a miscommunication between the victim and the offender.

BINGO! Which is why both parties should be made to sit in front of a therapist, instead of the guy in front of a Judge on rape charges and the girl at a table with rape feminists who are trying to convince her that she is a victim in need of their "help", a large component of which will be Fireflyish ranting about what bastards men are and how women need to be in constant fear that the love box will be taken by force .... .

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@firefly,

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Why this need to have sex with women who are extremely intoxicated? Why risk a rape charge by doing that?

Why do women need or desire sex with extremely intoxicated men and why should they not be facing the risk of rape charges to the same degree if you are assuming that women have the same rights and the same responsibilities as men.

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@BillRM,

because everyone is more sexually attractive at closing time.

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@firefly,

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Why this need to have sex with women who are extremely intoxicated? Why risk a rape charge by doing that?

as we have talked about the level of intoxication required to criminalize sex is moving downwards...but in answer to your question drunk sex has in my experience often been fabulous sex. I object to the state taking away my right to engage in it.

1 Reply

Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

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