Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

I want to ask you a question, Caroline too, and if I phrase it wrong, well, I hope I don't. I don't think anyone can deny that society's views of people having sex has slackened quite a bit. It is no longer the big no-no for women as it once was. There was a time that men could have as many sex partners and they were applauded by their buddies but if a woman did the same, her reputation is shot. It is obvious not so in today's times.

Do you think the change in attitudes about sex has any bearing on how people now view rape?

Judging by what I've read in this thread attitudes towards rape has slackened too. I think that the men who rape that some have a good idea that it's hard to prove or that they wont get caught. No matter what the attitudes towards sex it is no excuse for rape, there is no excuse for rape.

I could not agree with you more that there is no excuse for rape. I wouldn't take what Bill and Hawkeye say about rape as an indication that the attitude about rape has slackened. I know most men don't think like those two.

Caroline, so many rapes aren't even reported, and, of the ones which are reported, only a small percentage go to trial and only some of those result in convictions. So most rapists aren't getting light sentences, they aren't even being arrested and charged with rape in the first place. It is fairly easy to get away with the crime of rape and, as you say, rapists remain free to continue to victimize more and more women.

I think the first step has to be to empower more women to report their rapes, and to report them promptly. And police need proper training in how to handle these reports without making the woman feel responsible for her rape, or making her feel they doubt her truthfulness, and they need to be able to assure her that her complaint will be investigated, and her rape kit will be tested. Too many rapes may go unreported because women may feel they will be putting themselves through a needless ordeal with little chance that their rapist will actually be arrested and charged.

I've been heartened during the course of this thread to see that some progress is being made. Police departments are beginning to look at why more rape reports aren't being investigated. That's very important because police departments can be as biased and prone to believing rape myths as the general public, and this can cause them to disregard a report or make a premature and erroneous assumption about a case or about the victim. And the publicity about all those untested rape kits has gotten some momentum going, and there are efforts to deal with the backlogs. In places, like Los Angeles, the positive results of such efforts can already be seen.

Of course, all of that addresses rapes after they have actually occurred, The issue of preventing rapes, particularly rapes by acquaintances and dates, or others who are actually known to the victim, is still very difficult, as is the problem of prosecuting such rapes, particularly when there are no obvious or serious injuries to the victim. That's where issues like, "she asked for it", or "she wanted it" come into play, and the man's defense can simply be that the sex was consensual.

I personally feel that juries should be able to hear from other women who report similar types of sexual assaults by the same man. Most rapists repeat their crimes, and one way to bolster a victim's credibility in a trial is by allowing testimony from other women who have had similar assault experiences with the defendant. Often the police ask other women to come forward when they have arrested a suspect, and, when cases receive some publicity, this is possible. But the average date rape or acquaintance rape may receive little or no media coverage or attention. On a college campus, word may informally spread about a particular man's behavior with women, and that might encourage other women to go to the authorities, but, generally, men who rape women they may have just met at a bar or a party, where there are no obvious injuries to the woman, can feel pretty confident that they going to get away with doing this, and continuing to do it to other women. That's where collecting DNA evidence and testing those rape kits might help. Enough reports from enough women, implicating the same man through DNA evidence, might finally help to put him away--at least for several years--even in he said/she said situations.

We have to start rape education, as part of encouraging responsible sexual behavior, at least as soon as adolescents start to become sexually active. The whole notion of consent must be made crystal clear. Females must be able to say, "No" and males must understand they have to respect that, without further attempts to coerce, pressure, or "take advantage of" her. Just as we teach safe sex, we have to define and promote sexual boundaries, the legal boundaries of rape, for adolescents, to help them be as safe from rape as we would like them to safe from STDs and unwanted teen pregnancies. And we've got to start doing this long before they get to college. While most females fear stranger rape, the truth is that most females are raped by someone that is known to them. Rape education has to start with these potential partners when they are still fairly young, and that's when the rape myths, and the rape apologies, should be discussed and discouraged, and the rape laws clearly explained.

I think most rapists are created by the culture we live in, which encourages the sexual exploitation of women, and early educational interventions might help to counter that. Just as young boys and men learn that physically assaulting a female is wrong, they must also learn that sexually assaulting her is equally wrong. And they must learn exactly what constitutes a sexual assault and rape. And they've got to begin hearing this from male role models, and that's why men are so important in raising rape awareness and facilitating rape education. Precisely because most rapists are male,men can do the most to help stop rape.

Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, but I'd like to think that we could do something to decrease the number of rapes and rape victims, apart from just telling women how to protect themselves.

I'd like to throw my two cents in on this one, even though you addressed the question to Caroline.

I think the increase in casual sex has made it much more likely that a woman might be raped, by an acquaintance, or date, or someone she has just met, and it has resulted in these rapes being seen as less of a violation or less of an assault. It's as though what's the big deal with one more sexual encounter, even if it's unwanted. As long as weapons or extreme physical force aren't used, the police don't really seem to care, and the women may even blame themselves for their own rape, or wonder whether they were really raped, even when the sex was unwanted and the act was legally rape.

Because sex is so routinely expected, even between relative strangers at times, it's as though women wonder whether they even have the right to say, "No" anymore. And even the men might feel pressured into having sexual contacts that they really don't want, or where actual desire for the partner is minimal. As sex has become more casual it's also become more meaningless and less reflective of true intimacy with a partner.

Much earlier in this thread, I think I mentioned that one explanation for all the drinking that women do in bars and parties is that the women really aren't all that comfortable in these situations, or comfortable with the idea of expected casual sex. The alcohol decreases their social anxiety and decreases their sexual inhibitions, but it also puts them at greater risk of getting raped. But why should women be getting drunk to enjoy casual sex? Why are they pushing themselves to be in situations, or do things, they don't really feel comfortable about? Because this is what is expected? If that is the case, perhaps they'd be better off listening to their inhibitions, and drinking less, and having sex less often--or only when they really want to.

Since men have fewer problems now getting willing sex partners, because women are freer to enjoy sex, one wonders why there would be any significant number of date rapes, or incidents where the female feels unduly coerced or pressured into having sex. That says a lot about why sex is not the main motive in rape. The need to dominate, or control, or exert power, on the part of some men, is quite strong, even when sex is freely available to them.

I think women who obviously sleep around a lot are still regarded as sluts--the more things change, the more they stay the same. And men would likely feel less compunction about raping "a slut". We really haven't become so sexually liberated that we fully embrace the idea that a woman should be able to sleep with as many men as suits her fancy, as often as she likes. And I'm not sure that a lot of casual sex is something that appeals to most women. All the women I've known wanted sex in the context of a relationship--a relationship with a man they liked. Casual sex might be one way to get to that point, since it's a way to get to know people, and attract men, and enjoy sexual activity, but most women do want an emotional connection to their sex partner, they want an ongoing relationship with him. And most men want that too, at least the ones who are past adolescence, emotionally as well as chronologically. So I don't know that a lot of bed hopping really leaves most people, particularly women, feeling either satisfied or happy.

In some ways, we've devalued sex by making it too casual or too expected. And once that happens, I think you decrease some of the shock and horror of rape, particularly in terms of how society views it. That's why you get people talking about "grey rape" or rape that's not "real rape". That's nonsense--rape is rape. Unwanted sexual contact is offensive, it is a violation, it is an assault. But it's as if non stranger "date rapes" should just be taken in stride, seen as mildly unpleasant, but no really big deal. That's a terrible, and unnecessary price for women to have to pay for being sexually liberated. No woman wants to be raped. And just because the rapist is known to you doesn't make it any better or any less like a rape.

What is strange about this is some scientific studies that look solid had shown that a large number of rapes that are reported never happen on campuses.

It seem that real victims then are less likely to report rapes then the ones who wish to covered up for some minor misdeeds or get back at an old lover.

I do not think that most men think that it is a good idea to allow a woman who had gone out drinking with a guy to charge rape if she later regret having willing sex as it open all men to possible rape charges at the whim of any woman they happen to be dating without warning.

Right, but why is this? The fact that a lot of these women got themselves drunk first has a lot to do with it...none to clear about what happened and all. A lot of the college age women who the rape feminists call raped don't themselves consider themselves raped...that is a big roadblock to getting these events reported. The rape feminists are on the case though, trying with all their power to convince these women that they are victims, and trying to convince them to destroy their men by turning them in. So far they are not having a lot of success, strangely young women resist the message...

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

I do so love the rape scare the rape feminists are pedaling though..this has got to be such a wonderful psychological boost for our young men and women. Great Job!

Neither you nor BillRM seems to have actually read JustBrooke's post. Your responses have next to nothing to do with anything she said.

In general, neither of you have any ability to actually discuss a topic. You pull a sentence or two out of someone's post and either attack it, or use it as an excuse to regurgitate your usual obsessions--for Hawkeye it's always "feminists", for BillRM it's always "false accusations". But in no instance, can you actually discuss a topic.

You both consider no viewpoints other than your own highly biased, anti-female attitudes, you have made no thoughtful or reflective contributions to this thread that reflect any real understanding of what other posters have said, you repeat yourselves ad nausem without actually saying anything of substance or even adding anything new, and, quite frankly, you are the two dullest, most boring individuals I have encountered in all my years at A2K.

And while you both apparently think you are quite clever or sharp, since you both pat yourselves on the back very often, you are so far from clever it is actually funny when you both think you've scored a point or two, because that's so far from the truth.

Dull, dull, dull. Boring, boring, boring. Both of you.

I love you to............

I think that the point that about 50% of college women who rape feminists call raped dont consider themselves to be raped is something that is new in this thread.

the fact that Brooke is trying to make college rape into this huge problem but that 50% of the women who allegedly have this problem dont think that they have been raped is highly relevant to her assertion. It pretty much kills it.

I am sure that Brooke was never going to mention it, because there is about zero chance that she is even aware of the fact. That woman has drowned herself in rape feminist kool-aid. A little bit a fact to counter her hysteria is certainly required, as a public service. Otherwise people might actually take her seriously.

The long and short of it is if a woman on a college campus does not made a habit of getting drunk in public or with men she does not know well in private and take normal security precautions otherwise her chance of getting rape is very small indeed.

There is a lot more too it than that Bill.....this "fact" that 1 out of 4 college girls is raped before she graduates is arrived at using the worst of the new definitions of rape. Basically one pat on the ass is rape now. Or any drilling where the woman did not yell first "**** me now, for the love of Christ **** me now!" No, they don't willingly document this standard but suffice it to say a huge part of this alleged rape crisis on college campus is a snow job.

People still buy the BS with no questions asked though, so I have to hand it to the rape feminists and give credit where credit is due. I appreciate the successful use of power, even when dishonesty is used to get there.

Hell who would not laugh at such a claim as 1 in4 being rape as on it face such a figure is nonsense.

No matter how you define rape a 1/4 figure is nonsense and must had been pull out of someone rear end.

Hell not even the Russian army when taking Berlin at the end of ww2 was able to rape one in four women in the city.

Ya, I have three, 15-22...I know first hand how mousy many young men are now. My two girls constantly complain that they cant find men who have balls. These alleged rape stats are so ridiculous it is embarrassing how easily they are swallowed.

No, Hawkeye, those 50% of women who did not categorize their experience as a rape, doesn't mean a damn thing. And, if you re-read that material you posted you will understand why. They quite clearly said they could draw no conclusion from that finding because it might have had something to do with the way the question was worded, or the woman's possible feelings of embarrassment about admitting she was raped, etc. And when the people who do a study tell you not to leap to conclusions about the findings because other variables might have been an influence, you should listen to them.

Also, this was one survey, done about 10 years ago, in which only 86 incidents had been classified as rapes. How 86 females might classify a sex act tells you next to nothing compared to the total number of women who have had an unwanted sexual experience/assault. Try asking thousands, and thousands of women, and see if that percentage holds up.

Just digging up studies and posting them means nothing if you don't know how to properly interpret the data.

But, look how fast you were to try to give yourself another pat on the back for posting that meaningless statistic. For what? Taking another undeserved swipe at "feminists"? Is this your idea of being clever?

Your obsession about those evil "feminists" is absolutely blinding you to the fact that most women share similar views about the topic of rape--whether or not they happen to be card carrying feminists. Most women are concerned about issues that affect women, and that includes rape and the laws to protect women from sexual assaults. And it has nothing to do with "feminism", except, that in the broad sense, most women may likely share some basic feminist views. Feminists have never promoted an agenda that most women would see as antagonistic to their own interests, and most women would probably see "feminism" as a political movement working in their behalf. Women have benefited greatly from the feminist movement in the past 50 years. So, when you attack "feminists" because you, personally, don't like the current sex laws, you are actually attacking the beliefs of most women, and not just one particular political segment called "feminists". That's one reason, among others, that you come across as so anti-female.

And honestly, Brooke's discussion about the situation on her campus is more interesting, and more compelling, than any half baked statistics you can dig up, precisely because it is a more personal account by an obviously very intelligent, well informed, and perceptive woman, and because Brooke can express herself quite clearly and eloquently. I'm interested in what she has to say. You're only interested in winning some imaginary competition you seem to be having with all of us. So that's why you disregard her entire post, except for your KoolAid crack, and respond to her only by posting another meaningless statistic that adds nothing to the discussion. Among other things, statistics tell you very little about how women feel about rape or about being raped. Actually listening to women will tell you much more. Try listening. Try reading their posts and thinking about them.

College rape is in fact a huge problem. About 1 in every 4 or 5 college women will be raped. And colleges do not always deal with this problem well at all. And, because you dig up one lousy outdated statistic, that proves absolutely nothing, does not invalidate the real life problem or make it go away. Denial does not do away with rape. Joking about it does not make it less serious, it simply makes you, and BillRM, look like ignorant fools who dislike women. For your sake, and her sake, I hope your college bound daughter does not become one of those 1 in 4.

The fact remains that you cannot engage in a discussion. Your constant reiteration of only your own biased views, is not a discussion of any sort. You are standing on your soapbox preaching, generally ranting about "feminists". That's not discussing anything. Your idiotic banter with BillRM is completely devoid of wit, and his constant perseveration of his false allegations nonsense, often expressed in barely coherent fashion, really makes him sound brain damaged. I feel as though someone should be singing that old song, "Poor Johnny One Note" in the background when I read posts by either of you, because you are both so limited and confined to your one main issue each. Hawkeye="evil sex hating feminists", BillRM=False accusations. That's it.

How much more boring and dull can you get than that?

You have no idea how incredibly dull and boring you both are.

As for your daughters' complaints that they can't find "men with balls", what makes you think that has any connection to rape statistics? You think rapists "have balls"? It is actually true that 'real men' don't rape--they don't have to.

One need to wonder how many mothers with sons take the same viewpoint you do about rape.

My god you have the nerve to post such complete nonsense!!!!!!

Ok you others women who go through college yourself do you give such nonsense any credit at all?

If you was not rape during your colleges years according to this nonsense on average one in four of your girlfriends was!!!!!!!!!!!

Lord what nonsense........................

Here is a link to a long article of where that bullshit number came from and similar bullshit numbers on rape.


http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html

To made the long and short of it if a man buy a woman a drink or two and then had sex with her she was rape!!!!!

God I am a rapist many times many times over as is 99 percents of all men in the country and I am surprise that with that question if the rape rate was not 80 percents or more.

By taking out that silly question the rape rate drop to like a rock to a more likely figure. See below.

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The Toledo reporters calculated that if you eliminate the affirmative responses to the alcohol or drugs question, and also subtract from Koss's results the women who did not think they were raped, her one in four figure for rape and attempted rape "drops to between one in twenty-two and one in thirty-three."[25]
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