1
   

The Lack Of Healthcare Coverage

 
 
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2007 09:01 am
@FedUpAmerican,
[SIZE="3"] I AGREE[/SIZE]

[SIZE="3"] And here in lies the moral dilemma , are you all for the taking of life to the tunes of billions a month, but unwilling to see a dime of tax payer money go to save a life? This question simply divides the moral from the immoral in my mind and Christian belief .

And its sad to say but most in the US that I have encountered seem to belong to the camp that will take lives and support tax payer money doing it , but care nothing about saving lives .

That is a sad statement and we as a country can't expect much of a future for this country when we have become that callused and immoral. [/SIZE]
[/B]


FedUpAmerican;38657 wrote:
Seems A LOT better than $12 billion a month to fund the ILLEGAL OCCUPATION of Iraq.
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2007 09:36 am
@FedUpAmerican,
How much extra above taxes do you send WV? Should a good Christian give above and beyond taxes? If you don't does that make you a "socalled Christian"?
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2007 11:34 am
@Drnaline,
Well I have supported a mission for orphans in Brazil for a number of years and I send a donation to project helmet every month for our soldiers.

But more importantly I never turn my back without giving to anybody in need. Need food and I find it out , food you will have. Need to raise money to get your kid a operation or cancer treatments for the uninsured I am your woman for the fund raiser. Returning from Iraq with your legs blown off , I am your fund raiser woman.
Bum begging on the street a dollar you will get. Makes no never mind to me if they did something to cause the plight they are in , they are still hungry and a bum , and I have more than they so I can give them some of what I have.


Drnaline;38785 wrote:
How much extra above taxes do you send WV? Should a good Christian give above and beyond taxes? If you don't does that make you a "socalled Christian"?
0 Replies
 
kmchugh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 04:57 am
@Drnaline,
I think it interesting that FUA keeps claiming those who oppose him have no debate skills, we are unable to think, yet he absolutely refuses to step into the debate. Both Freeman and I have offered data to demonstrate that the problem isn’t nearly the catastrophe that FUA paints, yet he offers no counterpoints. Now, who can’t debate the issue? Sir, I would offer that we are the ones doing the thinking, while you are simply emoting.

WV, I think your activities are commendable. We need more people like you. But let me offer some counterpoints, using your own life as the fulcrum.

First of all, look at the money you raise. When you raise that money, how much of it goes to the intended recipient? I’d guess that the very idea that you would keep any of that money would horrify you, and that every dime you raise goes to the person or agency for whom you raised it. Our government is not nearly as efficient. The last statistics I read said that for every tax dollar collected for social programs, only 40 to 60 cents went to those for whom the program was designed to help. The rest of the money went to government administrative costs. These costs include things like record keeping, employee salary, building costs, office costs, ad nauseum. The government cannot help but “empire build” and the way the government promotion system works, it actively encourages it. For most government employees, a large part of your GS rating, and as a result, your salary, depends on how many people you supervise. So, for the average employee, the bigger your empire, the bigger your paycheck. And that’s just one example of how this program is going to cost far more than anyone expects, and why are taxes are going to have to be raised, and raised dramatically. The point here is that private, non-government charities are far better at providing social help than is the government.

Next, look at the beneficiaries of your efforts. If I came to you tomorrow, and asked you to help me raise money for my house payment, would you at least look at whether or not I really needed that help? My guess is that you’re at least going to ask me why I need the help. If my answer is that I got hurt, and can’t work right now, you would probably help. But if my answer is that I had a great job, but my boss was kind of a horse’s ass, so I showed him and quit, you will probably tell me that I made my bed, now I have to sleep in it. In other words, those are the consequences of your own actions.

I’ve been in health care for more than 10 years, and in that time, I have provided care for literally thousands of patients receiving public aid. The vast majority are more than physically and mentally able to work, they simply choose not to. It is easier to live off the government than to get into the workforce and somehow be a productive member of society. Consider this, and I have seen this particular patient hundreds of times. A woman comes to the hospital to have a baby. She is in her mid-20’s, unmarried, and having her fourth or fifth child, often by the third, fourth, or even fifth father. She started having these children when she was 14 or 15. With her first child, she started receiving government checks. With each additional child, the size of this check has grown. She has absolutely no incentive to work, she suffers none of the consequences of her decisions. Now, you may tell me that she can’t work, she has to raise those kids. My response is she made the decision to have those kids, why am I, the father of none of those children, to be held responsible for providing her with the money to stay at home and not work?

You have told us all that it is unchristian to not want a national healthcare policy, but let me ask you a question: Does the bible not also speak to personal responsibility? Does it not also require us to be productive? If one is able to work, and work is available, yet one chooses not to work simply because it is easier to live off the government, is that not theft? Christ himself, when faced with a sinner, did not condemn her, but did admonish her to “go and sin no more.”

Finally, look at your means of raising money. Boiled down, you see a need, and you collect money to meet that need. In essence, you ask people for donations. Suppose you came to me asking for a donation. Based on my perception of the need and my ability to donate, I might give you $5, $50, $500, or even $5000. Or, I might not give you anything at all. That decision could be based on my perception that the need is not that great, or that I have other charities I would rather donate to, or simply that I am unable to give you money and still meet my own needs. If you take money from me by force, even if you give all that money to those whom you see as needy, you have committed robbery. I am the victim of a crime.

When such a program is given government force, the ability to make that decision is taken from me. If the government ends up taking so much of my paycheck that I can no longer afford to pay my own bills, too bad. Guess you will have to file bankruptcy, or sell what you have, or even go to jail. I have no say as to whether I consider the government program worthy or not. I have no ability to make my own decision as to how much I should donate, and cannot factor in my own responsibilities. I have been robbed, just as surely as if you pointed a gun at my head to take my wallet.

Frankly, I see more negatives to governmental involvement in healthcare than I see positives. Based on what I know of the government, and based on the track record our government has administering social programs, I believe they are the LAST agency who should provide any kind of healthcare coverage. I’m tired of being told that I am greedy and a sinner because I want to see that my hard work to get where I am provides some benefit to me and my family. Frankly, I’m tired of being robbed by my government to support people, the vast majority of whom are more than able to support themselves.
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 08:43 am
@kmchugh,
Km chugh

The money I have raised has went completely to the needy . To Iraq vets who lost their leg or had head injuries from shrapnel . That money was raised through the Fraternal Order Of Eagles . if you know anything about the eagles you know they were happy to raise the money and give it all over 6K each time to our local returning vets.

The other money I have helped raised has went for operations for children. And this is where you and I disagree. We should not have had to raise that money , the operation should have been readily available through our health care system. And my daughter is a Pharmacist , my youngest son a second year orthopedic surgeon resident. I have several of doctors, a couple dentists, nurses and a radiologist in my family. Most agree the medical care system in this country needs revamped badly. Things like competitive drug negotiations on pricing. Its crazy that you can buy American drugs cheaper in Canada or Mexico than you can here in the USA. And while my relatives who are in the medical field certainly want to make a good living , they deserve it after all the years they went to school. They went into those fields because they believe in helping people stay alive and cannot condone the current system that allows people to die for lack of medical care. And yes I can speak for them as politics and medical reform are hot topics at all my family gatherings.

Let me in as few words as possible , so as not to bore you tell you what I would like to see.

1st- Cut the federal government completely back to size. They should handle national defense. Interstate commerce. Some foreign relations under close scrutiny of the states and not much more.

2nd- Return power and tax money back to the states. Let Louisiana charge their own port taxes and build their own levy. They'll have the money if they are not sending it all to Washington.

3rd - Institute a flat tax . 15-18% ought to take care of the federal governments remaining duties . The states can tack on their varying needs to run state programs . It will still be about the same as we all pay now 35% or so and it will be put to better use.

4th- Pass the law of the land that social security accounts are returned to the state the individual citizen lives in and can be transferred state to state as the person moves around the country. That social security funds are not to be borrowed against and can only be invested in Mutual Funds and Bond insured accounts. Let the states administer social security.

5th- Set up in every state a risk management health care system just like the insurance companies do. Each family will pay a premium once a year at the same time they get their car tags . I imagine just by my rudimentary math equations it would cost something like $300 for a single person and about $800 for a family of four. This is a required payment for all citizens and in return they receive free medical and dental services when they need them.

For a year or two we may need a additional consumer tax to fund the health care and the states to get over the hump to independence from the federal government. But consumer taxes have the advantage of the fact the consumer can choose to buy or not.

There would be some hassles in the beginning. As people rushed to take advantage of free medical care or care they could not afford for several years. But if you know anything about the insurance industry they make lots of money betting that far fewer people will use the services they pay for than do use the services. Its a proven business model and works for the insurance companies. I see no reason why it can't work for the states and citizens of this country with something as important as saving peoples lives.

And with it being administered by the states citizens will have much more control over how the money is spent. It is beyond the reach of most citizens to travel to washington and they cannot get a hearing when they get there if they do go. But with the states managing their own affairs we will see retirees in mass sitting on state capital steps if they don't like the way the money is being spent, to give the politicians a piece of their mind.

And with all the states competing and through trial and error finding their own ways we'd soon have the bugs worked out and the best system the collective USA could come up with.

And you and I agree completely on keeping the federal government out of everything possible. I think the federal government has far overstepped its bounds. I have ideas about how the state representatives could represent their constituents in the National capital without selling us all out.

But I will not bore you with those for now. Its time for a complete over haul people. Election reform in the extreme is the first step and then the people of this once great land can begin to take our country back from the war mongers and thieves in washington.
AMERICAFIRST cv
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 10:57 am
@FedUpAmerican,
The illegals are getting all the free healthcare...
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 11:16 am
@AMERICAFIRST cv,
AMERICAFIRST;38958 wrote:
The illegals are getting all the free healthcare...


Anybody can walk into a emergency room and be stabilized and sent home with a prescription . They won't give them the drugs because that costs more money , but they will and have to see them in the emergency room by law regardless of ability to pay. Although some private hospitals will turn people away unless they can prove they can pay.

They do not have to admit them and they need only do what is needed to keep them from dying . They do not even take out your appendix unless it has already burst because you are not technically ready to die yet.

This includes illegals.

Is this the way we want to continue to run our health care in the US?

It should not be because from a business stand point it is inefficient, over priced and makes no sense.
briansol
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 01:39 pm
@wvpeach,
wvpeach;38939 wrote:
what I would like to see.

1st- Cut the federal government completely back to size.
2nd- Return power and tax money back to the states.
3rd - Institute a flat tax .
4th- Pass the law of the land that social security accounts are returned to the state


you SURE you're not a ron paul fan??? cuz all but the social healthcare you mention, he's on your side......:eek:
0 Replies
 
Freeman15
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 01:41 pm
@wvpeach,
wvpeach;38965 wrote:
Anybody can walk into a emergency room and be stabilized and sent home with a prescription . They won't give them the drugs because that costs more money , but they will and have to see them in the emergency room by law regardless of ability to pay. Although some private hospitals will turn people away unless they can prove they can pay.

They do not have to admit them and they need only do what is needed to keep them from dying . They do not even take out your appendix unless it has already burst because you are not technically ready to die yet.

This includes illegals.

Is this the way we want to continue to run our health care in the US?

It should not be because from a business stand point it is inefficient, over priced and makes no sense.



We usually agree, but your health care stance simply isn't effective. Even if states handle it (as is their right), you'd be imposing a burden on the citizenry and lowering health care standards to benefit 4% of the national population. Competition breeds quality, and ultimately socialized medicine is a program we don't need that can only hurt us, ar any level.
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 01:44 pm
@Freeman15,
I like Ron Paul very much, now as a doctor if he would follow his oath he took as a doctor and do all that he can to keep people alive than he'd be the perfect politician.
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 01:46 pm
@Freeman15,
I am willing to put a burden on the citizenry for a few things freeman. For national defense, for education, for care of the elderly and retarded, and for health care to stop people from dying for lack of care.

Yep those four things I believe we should pay for.


Freeman15;38987 wrote:
We usually agree, but your health care stance simply isn't effective. Even if states handle it (as is their right), you'd be imposing a burden on the citizenry and lowering health care standards to benefit 4% of the national population. Competition breeds quality, and ultimately socialized medicine is a program we don't need that can only hurt us, ar any level.
aaronssongs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 04:47 pm
@wvpeach,
wvpeach;38989 wrote:
I am willing to put a burden on the citizenry for a few things freeman. For national defense, for education, for care of the elderly and retarded, and for health care to stop people from dying for lack of care.

Yep those four things I believe we should pay for.


I'm in agreement...we waste far too much money on foolishness.
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 06:02 pm
@aaronssongs,
A real and smart american


aaronssongs;39002 wrote:
I'm in agreement...we waste far too much money on foolishness.
0 Replies
 
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 06:57 pm
@wvpeach,
wvpeach;38988 wrote:
I like Ron Paul very much, now as a doctor if he would follow his oath he took as a doctor and do all that he can to keep people alive than he'd be the perfect politician.


Even if you forced everyone to pay for everyone elses healthcare, it wouldn't "keep people alive".
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 07:37 pm
@92b16vx,
I beg to differ just think of those who would live longer lives because they got breast and prostrate cancer screening and it got caught early.


92b16vx;39020 wrote:
Even if you forced everyone to pay for everyone elses healthcare, it wouldn't "keep people alive".
0 Replies
 
mlurp
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 07:42 pm
@AMERICAFIRST cv,
on all issues.
AMERICAFIRST;38958 wrote:
The illegals are getting all the free healthcare...

It isn't just the illegals, once a family is here (the entire family) yes they get free health. And as wvpeach pointed out if you want that same near useless care you can to get it. Well in most cases. That woman who died in the emergency room, crying in pain and bleeding. She got zip.......... And thats is a tragedy.
But what about all getting the same kind of real health care. Just like the congress or the 100 % service connected veteran. Or those with money. All Americans should have the same and not be in the free food line after using the system. Nor billed above the ability to pay.
So town hall meetings need to be brought back again and less parting in the Capital among our elected Representatives whom need to be back home and amoung those that he/she represents. To hear the all the people express their ideas and thoughts on all issues.
QUOTE: That is a sad statement and we as a country can't expect much of a future for this country when we have become that callused and immoral. END QUOTE, so true........... and so sad. We the people have to get those we elect to hear us. To stop and listin and know we are watching for the correct results.
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 07:46 pm
@mlurp,
excellent ideas mlurp!


mlurp;39026 wrote:
on all issues.
It isn't just the illegals, once a family is here (the entire family) yes they get free health. And as wvpeach pointed out if you want that same near useless care you can to get it. Well in most cases. That woman who died in the emergency room, crying in pain and bleeding. She got zip.......... And thats is a tragedy.
But what about all getting the same kind of real health care. Just like the congress or the 100 % service connected veteran. Or those with money. All Americans should have the same and not be in the free food line after using the system. Nor billed above the ability to pay.
So town hall meetings need to be brought back again and less parting in the Capital among our elected Representatives whom need to be back home and amoung those that he/she represents. To hear the all the people express their ideas and thoughts on all issues.
QUOTE: That is a sad statement and we as a country can't expect much of a future for this country when we have become that callused and immoral. END QUOTE, so true........... and so sad. We the people have to get those we elect to hear us. To stop and listin and know we are watching for the correct results.
0 Replies
 
briansol
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 09:15 pm
@FedUpAmerican,
since i've been called the nazi and heartless bastard for lack of better words on the health care thing....

my problem with it is that its going to cost me more, provide ME with less coverage than what i pay for on my own, and its simply going to flood the system.


i WOULD support a system that costs me 100-200 a year (and everyone 100-200 a year) for SERIOUS illness. cancer, heart attacks, etc.

but i have a hard time paying out of pocket so some body can go get a $50 flu shot.
Freeman15
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 09:37 pm
@wvpeach,
wvpeach;38989 wrote:
I am willing to put a burden on the citizenry for a few things freeman. For national defense, for education, for care of the elderly and retarded, and for health care to stop people from dying for lack of care.

Yep those four things I believe we should pay for.


Then we disagree in principle. I see things like education, roads, police and defense as things that benefit most, if not all of a population, and thus worthy of everybody paying into it. If 96% of a community is recieving nothing for their tax dollars, that does not jive with the idea of limited taxation.

Tax less, encourage community cohesion, and I guarantee charity will provide what you want the government to provide, and they'll do it faster, cheaper, and better.

*Note, all powers listed I advocate at the state level only, save defense, which can be shared.
wvpeach
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 09:39 pm
@briansol,
The truth is brian that we all would go through paying about the same as we do now for private insurance and face a run on the health care industry for 7 -12 months depending on how fast the health care providers adapt. And it would seem a inconvenience to many in the beginning. But that would wash out in a year or two and then we would all be better off.



But in the long run it should save us all , yes each and every one money.

And Brian also keep in mind that I perceive you as a relatively young man. I paid about $200 ten years ago for a self employed family policy for me and my three kids. It eventually went up to about $500 before the kids got out of college and I am now paying $645 a month with no kids on the policy and no health problems. I am 49 years old and have friends my age also self employed who are paying over $900 a month with yearly increases and it will go up , because one of them has a health concern and cannot afford to drop the insurance or they will be denied coverage for a pre existing condition from another company.

Think about it Brian your premiums will go up with age,just like the price of life insurance does ; will you feel the same when you are paying 600 or 900 or even 1200 a month as some I know?


I did a simple math calculation based on 300,000 million population a few years ago, and it worked out that if we use the same risk management ratios as the insurance companies who have made billions after billions on health care insurance do . When it all worked out in the wash a single person would pay a premium of about $300 per year. A family of four about $800 per year. ........ Cheaper and better for all of us because we cut out the insurance companies and allow negotiations with the god like pharmaceutical companies.

Risk versus /use Its been profitable for insurance companies to the tune of billions a year for almost a century.

Explain to me why when peoples lives are at stake we should not cut out the middle man( the insurance companies) and as states use the same system to cover everybody at a much reduced cost ?

briansol;39039 wrote:
since i've been called the nazi and heartless bastard for lack of better words on the health care thing....

my problem with it is that its going to cost me more, provide ME with less coverage than what i pay for on my own, and its simply going to flood the system.


i WOULD support a system that costs me 100-200 a year (and everyone 100-200 a year) for SERIOUS illness. cancer, heart attacks, etc.

but i have a hard time paying out of pocket so some body can go get a $50 flu shot.
 

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