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THE US, UN AND IRAQ V

 
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 08:26 am
Quote:
I am convinced they actually think they are doing the right thing. Combine Bush's misguidedness with post-9/11 blind patriotism and you have recipe for disaster.


ILZ, I often find myself thinking the same thing. But then I wonder if they can't learn, can't question, can't stop blindly defending everything they do.

Quote:
America has given this fool unconditional support and a blank cheque.


This has bothered me for over a year. Why, why, why did this country's citizens sit back and accept what they were told? When I spoke out strongly against the war back in December and January, my acquaintances and family let their eyes slide away from mine. No one wanted to appear disloyal or unpatriotic. No one wanted to question what we were being fed by the administration. Even if they thought they were "doing the right thing," they never let us hear any skeptism, any doubt. They never let us try to form a conclusion on our own, after we were presented with both sides of an argument. We were told that "they knew" things from intelligence that they could not reveal but that supported their first-strike plans.

I agree with you that comparisons between 1930's Germany and the present-day world are weak at best. But there is one similarity I see: the German people accepted blindly what they were told and did not protest their leaders' actions. We in this country did the same thing. The voice of us dissenters, we who marched against the war and wrote letters and made phone calls, were drowned out by the greater lock-step acceptance of the populace, afraid to question after 9-11.

Now, finally, some of the dissenters are joining the Dean bandwagon. Their voices are loud now that they have companions walking on each side of them, in great number. Where were they when their voices would have counted? If our march in Washington had been 500,000 or a million, rather than the 100,000 who walked, the White House would have had to listen, if only to slow down, look more closely at the evidence, ask if there might be political fall-out from a pre-emptive war. Because we all know -- cynically but truthfully -- that only negative political fall-out would have stopped the President and his PNAC advisors.

Quote:
That lack of dissent, in my opinion, is more of a threat to America than any terrorist organization.


Yes, ILZ, Yes.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 10:49 am
Whoops ...... wrong thread
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 11:14 am
Kara

The article by Hersh was fascinating. It is obvious that the "Iron Hammer" approach (the use of tanks, and heavy armor) in fighting the terrorist tactics of the pro-Saddam forces is a failure and will, if continued, merely exacerbate the deteriorating situation.

I believe you would agree that failure in Iraq is NOT an option. I personally am very pleased that Rumsfeld has chosen to concentrate on greatly expanding the Special Force structure which has necessitated replacement of many of the "conventional force" leadership in the Pentagon. It is analogous to the Air Force replacing the "Strategic Air Command hierarchy" within the Air Force. These Generals became dominant in Air Force doctrine structure immediately after WWII, to the detriment of our conventional air force which nearly became extinct. This was corrected in the '70's when we finally were able to convince top leadership of the valid requirement to produce fighter aircraft that could produce air superiority over the battlefield. The F-16 and the F-15 were created and to this day can control the sky over any battlefield.

It is now time to use the "force multiplier" concept--that of using small agile units of highly trained and equiped personnel to perform the functions of a much larger conventional force, in this war on terror. There is still a valid requirement for conventional ground forces but a greatly expanded Special Ops force is a welcome addition to our overall capability.

This concept will work in Iraq-----IF----and this is a very big ----- IF-----the human intelligence can become reliable. Can this happen tomorrow? Probably not------ can it happen in the near future----maybe.

It must because "failure" in Iraq is not an option.

I strongly recommend everyone read Kara's article by Seymour Hersh

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?031215fa_fact
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 11:28 am
Power has made this administration act like drunken sailors. Just because they have not gropped or raped the women, their killing of innocent women and children are worse.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 12:00 pm
Kara,

I think what has been planned by the PNAC people when they were out of power, and implemented now they're in power is too big and has too much momentum to be reversed or even significantly diverted by a mere change of President. Sad
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 02:10 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Power has made this administration act like drunken sailors. Just because they have not gropped or raped the women, their killing of innocent women and children are worse.


Have you ever stopped to contemplate that this is a new and totally evil tactic that the Taliban have adopted. This coupled with false information which they are also adept at, would explain two closely related incidents of children being the victims in this war. Or do you believe that our guys get up in the morning and say OK, let's go kill some more kids? Your indiscriminate use of provocative terminology that says we are purposely killing women and children is totally irresponsible-----if you feel that strongly about what is happening in either Iraq or Afghanistan, why don't go see for yourself instead of parroting the left wing propaganda you read on the web and in the NYTimes.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 02:10 pm
Why do I get the feeling we just trained about three hundrerd terrorist?

Quote:
Almost half of new Iraqi army quits

Thursday 11 December 2003, 20:32 Makka Time, 17:32 GMT

An Iraqi soldiers pay is as low as $50 a month

Three hundred Iraqi army recruits have resigned from the first battalion set up by US occupation forces.

Only 400 soldiers are left on Thursday, following the mass walkout over terrible pay and conditions.



Salaries in the new army range from $50 a month to $180 for a colonel, a US occupation administration source said.



Speaking on condition of anonymity, the official also confirmed there had been discipline problems - with some recruits refusing to obey instructions before resigning.



"My understanding is that they felt they should be paid more money, for example, than the police," he said, adding that the occupation administration will review all security force salaries.



Bad beginning



Iraq's administrators had been building a new Iraqi army after dismissing all the members of Saddam Hussein's armed forces following the invasion in April.



"There may have been some confusion when they first joined the Iraqi army. They weren't sure exactly what their terms and conditions are," the official said.



What remains of the Iraqi First Battalion is serving with the US 4th Infantry Division.



The official said a second Iraqi battalion is now training "and there are no resignations from that."



Another group of more than 2000 recruits are expected to begin their training next year, he said.


SOURCE
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 02:22 pm
SOURCE---for the above article posted by Gel:

Aljazeera.net-----now there is a truly unbiased source----lap it up ya'all
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 02:52 pm
perception wrote:
SOURCE---for the above article posted by Gel:

Aljazeera.net-----now there is a truly unbiased source----lap it up ya'all


Quote:


I suppose you have documentation of Aljazeera's bias ..... not just your worthless opinion ...... PUT UP OR SHUT UP MOUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!


SOURCE
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 03:04 pm
perception wrote:
SOURCE---for the above article posted by Gel:

Aljazeera.net-----now there is a truly unbiased source----lap it up ya'all


We got this news here from: German tv*, reuters, ap, upi - all Bagdad offices.
*live interview in the main eveining news.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 03:34 pm
perception wrote:
SOURCE---for the above article posted by Gel:

Aljazeera.net-----now there is a truly unbiased source----lap it up ya'all


If you read the major newspapers - which I am sure you don't - you would know that the same story was in almost every paper this morning.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 03:51 pm
Gel wrote


I suppose you have documentation of Aljazeera's bias ..... not just your worthless opinion ...... PUT UP OR SHUT UP MOUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You should transmit that again----- the foaming spittle didn't make it through Laughing
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 04:10 pm
Careful with the sticks kids.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 04:39 pm
What!!!! Just having some fun with the dim witted .... if a person can't prove an allegation he should be carefull who he tries to bluff or he gets a reputation as a four flusher..... plain and simple sans sticks.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 05:20 pm
"Failure is not an option."
Uh...most people don't chose to fail, so yeah that is not on their list. Failure is a real possiblitly. Civil War in Iraq is most likely more than not likely. Also, the war in Afghanistan is not going as planned. Seems that the situation is slipping back to pre-war conditions.

Ya think that maybe God gave Dubya some crappy intructions?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 06:43 pm
pistoff, You know as well as the rest of us that if anything goes wrong, they blame it on satan.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 07:29 pm
Quote:
I believe you would agree that failure in Iraq is NOT an option.


Quote:
This concept will work in Iraq-----IF----and this is a very big ----- IF-----the human intelligence can become reliable.


Perc, I agree with you on these two things. One, we messed it up and we bloody well better be around for the bitter end. We will not be honored for what we did and will do, and the history books will write our shame in this adventure. The only credit in the books will come in what we leave behind, and that will be known in decades, not in years.

Secondarily, intelligence is crucial, and we are so far out of the loop on this issue that it is pitiful.

Steve wrote:

Quote:
I think what has been planned by the PNAC people when they were out of power, and implemented now they're in power is too big and has too much momentum to be reversed or even significantly diverted by a mere change of President.


Steve, this kind of thought awakens me at midnight. Has this engine become a self-perpetuating agent of destruction? A force of any kind can feed on its own internal power. I have never had such fear for the future of this country.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 08:27 pm
Kara wrote:
We will not be honored for what we did and will do, and the history books will write our shame in this adventure. The only credit in the books will come in what we leave behind, and that will be known in decades, not in years.


Kara
I believe the only real black mark that history will bestow upon us is the tragic failure of the post war planning.

I further believe we will be completely vindicated in the History of this war because we prevented Saddam from murdering and torturing any more of his people.

You and Steve needn't worry too much about the continuation of forceful global policy after Bush simply because it will be a long time before another president has the guts to call it like it is and to risk re-election in the process.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 09:05 pm
Quote:
I believe the only real black mark that history will bestow upon us is the tragic failure of the post war planning.


If I believed that, I would not continue posting on this thread.

If you can reduce our atrocities to a "post war mess," then you and I have no conversation.

I look for and listen to thoughts and conversations about what in the hell we were thinking of, and how we might have done that (yes, I can see that we might have done that...) and, most of all, what we can do now to reduce the damage. You are still backing and filling. I must go forward.

If our admininstration cannot accept that they went to war for all of the wrong reasons, put it out there for all of us to look at, accept our blows to their heads, switch course and outline a New American Prospect. Well, perception, I am not with your thinking even minimally.

When someone, anyone, steps forward and says that we must ponder and consider what 9-11 did to us, look evenly at what we can do against world terrorism and the extemists who fund it, and then get on with our foreign policy in all of the other important ways, I will listen to that person. My candidate has not shown up yet.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2003 09:14 pm
Quote:

The Baghdad Blogger

In the looters' market, a DVD singing the praises of the so-called resistance is selling like the hot bread of Bab al-Agha

Salam Pax
Wednesday December 10, 2003
The Guardian

I first heard it in a taxi. It kind of reminded me of the time when I would get in a taxi a year ago and get the fright of my life because the driver had a tape of a sermon by Shia clerics on. The "correct" thing to do was to ask the driver to turn it off, you know, just in case the driver was actually secret police and this was a test. Yes, paranoia ruled. Anyway, I got into a taxi a couple of days ago and the first thing out of the car speakers was:

"The men of Falluja are all as brave as wolves./They hit in the darkest nights with great precision./The sun of freedom will never set down on them./They fight in the name of Allah, followed by a big army."

It was in Arabic verse, so it rhymes better than my loose translation. It went on and on, praising the bravery of the so-called resistance. The driver was playing it really loud, as if to make sure everybody in the neighbourhood was aware of his peculiar musical tastes.

It wasn't exactly sung, it was done in the way eulogisers sing. We call them maddahs and they are usually accompanied by an instrument that looks like a huge tambourine without the cymbals but with little chains on the inside that rattle as you hit it.

So this maddah was shouting from the taxi I was in - shouting things that would fall directly under Mullah Brmer's fatwa about inflammatory verbal attacks on the coalition, ie, Mr Taxi Driver should be in jail, and I am in there contemplating the effects jumping out of the car might have on my ribs.

Mr Taxi Driver was very calm and cranked the volume up every time we stopped at traffic lights. Taking my chances, I decided to ask what this thing was and, without even blinking, he gave me the name of the maddah and where to get a copy of the recording.

OK, so I want a copy, I need to know what this thing is. The best place to visit when looking for iffy merchandise is the looters' market at Bab al-Sharji. You used to go there and find stuff spread out on a blanket, most of it stolen. And the vendor doesn't know what most of it is used for anyway.

After the war and all the looting, the blankets became stalls and you would find there everything from unused computers to used batteries - don't ask me who would buy those. The most interesting development was the stalls that sell bootleg movies. Porn sits beside religious sermons. At every stall is a small television and you can preview your chosen DVD. It is always fun to walk past the stalls and listen to the audio collage, but this time all the stalls were playing the same thing - the scary disc I heard in the taxi. On each stall, people crowded around watching that thing. It was selling like the hot bread of Bab al-Agha.

The strangest moment was when an American convoy came out of the nearby tunnel while the maddah was praising the deeds of the so-called resistance, the TV sets showing pictures of funerals of Iraqis killed by coalition fire. Everyone turned around and looked at the convoy. Not good.

The cover of the DVD only has American Army written on it and, surprisingly enough, once you start it, it gives you the name and address of the maddah and the production team, which means they either have bat **** for brains or they just don't care and have bat **** for brains.

The images they use are mainly from the al-Jazeera and Arabiyah networks - seriously bad stuff. There is one single shot which is not from TV networks. It shows two men on a motorbike, they come into the shot wearing kafiyehs around their faces and, as they drive away, you see one of them is carrying an RPG launcher.

All this is happening as the official media channels (the coalition-funded TV and newspaper) are starting their Say No to Terrorism campaign. I sat watching a woman lawyer on TV talking fervently to a stiff presenter. I was really watching, because seeing a woman like that made me think girl, where have you been all this time? Sorry, but they really never showed in-your-face women on TV before.

What was really amazing was the courage she had in criticising mosque sheikhs who are calling these attacks Jihad and giving the attackers some sort of credibility. She even launched an attack on one of Iraq's most famous sociologists, Ali al-Wardi, asking Iraqis to dismiss what he wrote about Iraqis being too passive: "I never believed that, don't listen to him," she said. That got her a frown from my mum and a cheer from me.


SOURCE
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