THE US, UN AND IRAQ V

Kara wrote:

D, we don't have enough personnel to blow them up. Or guard them. This would have been easier if we had thought out the after-war.

We have the capability to take out a porta-potty from 20000 feet ..... instead of homes for retribution why not an ammo dump or two or three or more?

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Kara wrote:

D, we don't have enough personnel to blow them up. Or guard them. This would have been easier if we had thought out the after-war.

The same is true elsewhere in the world:

Quote:

"Dirty bomb" missles reported missing

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It boggles my mind.
Ok. That aint hard to do but of all the bungling of allowing Iraqis to loot, allowing them to loot nuclear sites just blows my mind. Rummy said sumptin' like, ya gotta expect a little of this considering etc. but nuclear site looting? Come on!!!

I would like to clear sumptin' up. I am not anti-America. I am merely enraged by the Dubya Admin. I have traveled around America and have lived in many places. Also, overseas. It sickens me to see what these Govt. gansters are getting away with in this country and how they are destroying America.

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Dissent in the Bunker:

Quote:

Newt Gingrich"Americans can't win in Iraq," he says. "Only Iraqis can win in Iraq."

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Pdid
This is an excerpt from your article:

"We tried to work with Moldovan officials, but there wasn't a clear investigation, because the territory is not controlled by Moldova," he said by telephone.

Trans-Dniester does not see itself as part of Moldova. It is not recognized internationally".

Is this scary or what? This sort of stuff will really get your attention.

This is a link that gives good background info on the region.
http://www.freeserbia.net/Articles/2003/Chisinau.html

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Gelisgesti wrote:

We have the capability to take out a porta-potty from 20000 feet ..... instead of homes for retribution why not an ammo dump or two or three or more?

Not a real wise thing to do , given that the contents of most of the weapons dumps have not been surveyed for content or Country-of-Origin/Date-of-Manufacture of that content, apart from the fact that many of them are in or near inhabited areas. A few hundred tons of conventional munitions detonating more or less simultaneously has an effect on the surrounding area not unsimilar to that of a small nuke ... walls blown down, roofs collapsed, windows violently imploded, fires started, massive toxic fume and particulate dispersion, soft-tissue damage, and other nasty ill effects over hundreds, if not thousands, of acres. Some of the known dumps contain thousands, not hundreds, of tons. Then, just suppose one of those dumps contains not just conventional munitions ... a very scary thought. More manpower needs to be devoted to securing and surveying known sites, and every day, previously unknown caches of varying size, some quite substantial, are discovered. I agree not enough attention is being paid to the matter, but just "taking them out" is not an option which would occur to anyone who had a grasp of the consequences.

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timberland said:

Quote:

I agree not enough attention is being paid to the matter, but just "taking them out" is not an option.

just maybe Rumsfeld made a mistake in planning for enough boots on the ground. just maybe......just maybe Rumsfeld made lots of mistakes we are paying dearly for now..just maybe.

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I don't think the "boots on the ground" were insufficient to accomplish the mission of eliminating organized military resistance and toppling the Ba'athist Regime. That took less than a month, which speaks for itself I do feel post-attack planning has been shown to have been inadequate, and I've said so many times. Combat troops are not good cops; we needed more Civil Affairs and Constabulary personnel immediately following the achievement of the intitial military mission. That we did not have. The planning failure there goes well beyond just Rumsfeldt; he merely signed off on the plans put forth by a huge estasblishment of international nature. He had input, and major influence, but there's plenty of blame to go around.

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And as to "Paying Dearly" ... we've really paid very little at all, in real terms. The "Mess" exists in perception, not military reality. While the Ramadan-Western Year-End Holiday periods offer significant impetus for PR-oriented insurgent terrorist actions, no operational threat is presented thereby. In point of fact, more attempts at attack, by far, are being foiled than are successful attacks accomplished. Arrests and killings of insurgents, particularly of command-level individuals, coupled with massive siezures of money amd materiel are severely impacting the efficacy of the insurgency, and may be expected not only to continue to do so but to have increasing deliterious effect on the insurgency in the long run ... say over the next 45-90 days, if even that long. There is no broad public sympathy for the essentially Ba'athist insurgents. There is no extra-national supply-and-support network behind the insurgents, and their position is becoming ever more critically impared day-by-day. Bin Laden's announcement that he is transfering manpower and money from Afghanistan and elsewhere to Iraq is clear evidence of the desperate situation facing the insurgents. The insurgents' days are numbered, and neither the number of their days nor their available manpower pool are very big, no matter what the pessimistic punditocracy would like to imply.

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and Bremmer says its gonna get worst til next summer, so do we fire Bremmer?

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timberlandko wrote:

Gelisgesti wrote:
We have the capability to take out a porta-potty from 20000 feet ..... instead of homes for retribution why not an ammo dump or two or three or more?

Not a real wise thing to do , given that the contents of most of the weapons dumps have not been surveyed for content or Country-of-Origin/Date-of-Manufacture of that content, apart from the fact that many of them are in or near inhabited areas. A few hundred tons of conventional munitions detonating more or less simultaneously has an effect on the surrounding area not unsimilar to that of a small nuke ... walls blown down, roofs collapsed, windows violently imploded, fires started, massive toxic fume and particulate dispersion, soft-tissue damage, and other nasty ill effects over hundreds, if not thousands, of acres. Some of the known dumps contain thousands, not hundreds, of tons. Then, just suppose one of those dumps contains not just conventional munitions ... a very scary thought. More manpower needs to be devoted to securing and surveying known sites, and every day, previously unknown caches of varying size, some quite substantial, are discovered. I agree not enough attention is being paid to the matter, but just "taking them out" is not an option which would occur to anyone who had a grasp of the consequences.

Do you read the crap you write?
We leave brightly colored unexploded illegal cluster bomblets laying around, we spread radioactive waste from our armor penetrating munitions that ends up in the drinking water, we shoot innocent children for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, we kill the Iraqi police while they are in pursuit of the real badguys and you have the guts to say that it is better to let the terrorist use those caches of munitions to kill our kids off one at a time than to survey an area and then call in a strike to destroy the caches????
You are right in one aspect .... one of us needs to grab a clue.

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I ain't all that happy with Bremmer, either, for lots of reasons, but then, I can't off the top of my head come up with a better choice ... Lee Iacoca, maybe, if he wasn't too old ...Jack Welch, retired GE CEO, might be a good one ... I dunno. Bremmer's what we got at the moment, and I really think he's doing a reasonable job given his handicaps. As far as "Next Summer" goes, I really expect a clearly more autonomous and effective indiginous authority in place of the current CPA, along with a hugely expanded indiginous constabulary, backed with support from a nascen reconstituted Iraqi military and US heavy weapons/lAirpower/Logistic support will pretty much have rendered the insurgency moot.

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Rose colored glasses
Do conservatives get a discount on those?

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Gel, I don't expect you to give my objective appraisal credence over the emotional rabble-rousing pandering to which you subscribe. Its a matter of substance, not ranting. War is the ugliest of human experiences. Its really very good that it is so ugly and repulsive to civilized folk; otherwise there would be far more of it. As it is, Iraq is but a chapter in an ongoing, far-reaching, and likely very long-lasting war. Iraq is not the main event; it is a small, integral part of the big picture. There will of course be tragedies, errors, oversights, ommissions, and errors. There also will be victory, peace and prosperity, as the failings are the exception, not the rule; they get press, they arouse emotion, they have little other real effect. That seems cold, I know. It is. One cannot fight effectively if one allows emotion to overule reason. That is precisely why the insurgents are doomed, and why Iraq, and the region, have at last a brighter future.

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timberlandko wrote:

I ain't all that happy with Bremmer, either, for lots of reasons, but then, I can't off the top of my head come up with a better choice ... Lee Iacoca, maybe, if he wasn't too old ...Jack Welch, retired GE CEO, might be a good one ... I dunno. Bremmer's what we got at the moment, and I really think he's doing a reasonable job given his handicaps. As far as "Next Summer" goes, I really expect a clearly more autonomous and effective indiginous authority in place of the current CPA, along with a hugely expanded indiginous constabulary, backed with support from a nascen reconstituted Iraqi military and US heavy weapons/lAirpower/Logistic support will pretty much have rendered the insurgency moot.

Where do 15 to 20 million pissed off Shiites fit into your plans?

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timberlandko wrote:

Gel, I don't expect you to give my objective appraisal credence over the emotional rabble-rousing pandering to which you subscribe. Its a matter of substance, not ranting. War is the ugliest of human experiences. Its really very good that it is so ugly and repulsive to civilized folk; otherwise there would be far more of it. As it is, Iraq is but a chapter in an ongoing, far-reaching, and likely very long-lasting war. Iraq is not the main event; it is a small, integral part of the big picture. There will of course be tragedies, errors, oversights, ommissions, and errors. There also will be victory, peace and prosperity, as the failings are the exception, not the rule; they get press, they arouse emotion, they have little other real effect. That seems cold, I know. It is. One cannot fight effectively if one allows emotion to overule reason. That is precisely why the insurgents are doomed, and why Iraq, and the region, have at last a brighter future.

I deal in truth and lies, not spin .... show me where I have lied ...........
Your war is hell schtick is wearing thin.

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We Have a War
It is here in America right now. It may get to a physical one if our next election has even a slight whiff of what the last last on had. Americans got real upset about 911. Some countries such as the UK, Germany, China, Japan etc. had these occurances on a daily basis. I don't wish or Americans now to experience anything like that but my point is most of us have little concept of real war.

Brushing aside these things as some here do is indeed wearing real thin.

Real people in Iraq and Aghanistan and elsewhere are dying and sufering directly due to the US Govt.'s actions. Some people feel that the USA is right in the actions that have been and are being taken. I am not one of those.

We can debate these things here. I get weary of the bickering over the devilish little details. There are large issues to be discussed.

Policy of the USA regarding other countries is one such issue.

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Show me where I said you lied, Gel, and/or show me where I've lied. I know it bugs hell out of you that I consistently counter argue the anti-war, anti-US, anti-Bush spin to which you are so committed. I simply tell it like it is, not how it ought to be or how I would like it to be. I deal in objective facts and documented news, not feel-good opinions ant populist rantings. Its a matter of perspective, of realism, and of pragmatism.

Speaking of perspective, here's a bit of documented news:

Quote:

They came, they saw the conquerors
750,000 Fill Trafalgar Square
The Times | December 9, 2003 | Simon Barnes

IT WAS

Quote:

Emotions run high in Trafalgar Square[/size]
By John Inverdale | Telegraph.com
(Filed: 09/12/2003)

Nelson was facing the wrong way. Big Ben was showing 1.20pm. There was a man standing in the fountain threatening to take his shirt off and then mercifully thinking better of it. As Robbie Williams was saying to me only the other day, you notice little things like that when you're standing in front of about 750,000 people ...

Quote:

Thousands hail rugby heroes
Tue 9 December, 2003 06:00

By Paul Majendie and Gideon Long

LONDON (Reuters) - London has staged the biggest sporting celebration in its history as three quarters of a million people poured into the capital to see the nation's rugby union heroes parade the World Cup through the city centre ...

750,000 in Trafalgar Square ... on a weekday. Doesn't that break the record set a few weeks ago ... by about 700 percent? I'm sure Bush is embarrassed by the relatively poor turnout he managed to get.

Your denialist shtick was transparently, tragically thin in Neville Chamberlin's day. Fortunately, some have learned that lesson, and have the will, strength, and resolve to prevent the recurrence of such blind misapprehension.

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I simply tell it like it is...." Timberlake
Rolling Eyes

Tell us why you think GW and gang are good for America.
Tell it like it is.

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Uh-oh ... looks like there's been an accident at the Baghdad Bombworks:

Quote:

REUTERS: Explosion Hits Baghdad Mosque

December 9, 2003 - 7:23PM

An explosion has rocked a Sunni mosque in the Iraqi capital Baghdad today, killing several people, according to nearby residents.

US Lieutenant Colonel Frank German said from the scene that the explosion occurred shortly after dawn and appeared to have been inside the Ahbab al-Mustafa mosque in central Baghdad.

He had no details about casualties.

Local residents said several people had died, although that could not be immediately confirmed.

"An explosion rocked the mosque around 6.45am . . . I went to the roof of my house and after three minutes I heard a second explosion," said Ahmed Abdullah, a local resident.

There was blood on the ground inside the mosque, he said.

"When we arrived the flames had been extinguished, we set up a security zone and began the investigations," Colonel German said.

"As far as we can tell there was an internal explosion inside the mosque."

Earlier today, 31 US soldiers were injured today in a car bomb attack on their barracks near the northern Iraqi city of Mosul.

The US military confirmed the attack, saying the soldiers' injuries were mostly caused by flying debris, and were not life threatening.

The attack happened about 5am, local time, when a car drove to the entrance of the base used by the 3rd Brigade of 101 Airborne division in the town of Talafar, 50km west of Mosul.

Spokesman Major Trey Cate said guards opened fire on the vehicle and it blew up.

A total of 31 soldiers were wounded, mostly by debris and flying glass. None of the injuries were said to have been life-threatening.

"Whether it was a suicide attack or not, I don't know," Cate said.

And another insurgent attack was unsuccessful other than that it ate up some insurgents and insurgent resources.

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THE US, UN AND IRAQ V

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