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THE US, UN AND IRAQ V

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2003 10:31 pm
Quote:
I really do not think the trip to Baghdad was just for political reasons, although it is easy to think so and I would usually be the first to jump to that conclusion.

Then what possible reason could he have had for going there?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2003 10:32 pm
HofT wrote:
A search for "Barry Crimmins" on the FAA database of licensed pilots gave 0 results. The man (if civilian) can't have flown into darkened runways in a plane without lights. Who is he, anyway, Gelisgesti, and why should anyone care about his views?


For the record, for anyone who knew me before this posting - am a pilot completely furious at commentary <G>


Just quoting source ... add a dot com to his name
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2003 10:38 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Quote:
I really do not think the trip to Baghdad was just for political reasons, although it is easy to think so and I would usually be the first to jump to that conclusion.

Then what possible reason could he have had for going there?


My guess would be to talk with a representative of Sistani's.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2003 10:41 pm
HBob, I think he went to show support for the troops in Iraq. Whether that was primary, or secondary to political motives, is something that one can never know about a president. Maybe he was getting flak about not going to funerals or memorials -- there had been much commentary in the press -- and he decided to do something dramatic.

Sheesh. Why am I defending this stick man? I'm just argumentative sometimes....
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2003 01:25 am
HofT wrote:

For the record, for anyone who knew me before this posting - am a pilot completely furious at commentary <G>


Yes, I do - we some had had this pleasure Laughing

Wellcome again/back!
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2003 06:11 am
Quote:
Steve, I don't think perc has the same reaction, but you crack me up!


Thanks Kara, I think its my mission in life to win round Percy.

Perc, I don't detest Bush, I hardly know the guy. Anyway he's just gone up a notch in my estimation for giving a slap to Ariel Sharon. So he's now officially one notch above zero.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2003 09:55 pm
Hobit wrote:
Whahhabbist Islam and the Saudi govt.'s support of violence is certainly an important factor, but not all, or even most, of the terrorism in the ME is associated with Wahabbism. The major fundamentalist terror group in the ME is Hezbollah. Hezbollah are Shi'ites, not Sunnis, and therefore are as far removed ideologically and operationally from the Wahabbis as the Catholic IRA is from the right wing fundy militia groups in Idaho.
Hezbollah's major point of contention is Irael, and US support for Israel.
Please see, Daniel Byman's, "Should Hezbollah Be Next?" in the November/December 2003 Foreign Affairs.


While Hezbollah may be considered the major terrorist group in the ME( Wahhabism is very strong in Saudia Arabia, Afghanistan and Pakistan) it is obvious, at least to me, that they(Hezbollah) are very narrowly focused and obsessed with Israel. Granted they attacked and killed many of our troops in the barracks bombing in Lebanon but then we were very much involved in aiding the Iraelis therefore we were an obstacle to be removed. They read Reagon correctly because we pulled out----just another reason why Bush is absolutely correct in restating our resolve to stay in Iraq until war against Saddam and his thugs is brought to a satisfactory close. Hezbollah is aligned with the Shiites and it is commonly recognized that Iran and Syria support these thugs with training camps in Lebanon(What has the UN done to remove Syrian troops from Lebanon and to stop Syria's illegal occupation of that country?-----ZIPPO -----but then no one wants to address that injustice).

So while Hezbollah may be considered a strong or even dominant terrorist force in the Me it would appear that you want to shift attention away from Wahhabism as the most serious WORLD WIDE threat with cells in every country on the globe. Bin Laden is a Wahhabi, al Queda is financed and supported by Saudia Arabia where the ONLY religion is Wahhabi, all madrassa schools, located mostly in Pakistan but are all over the world and financed by Saudi money, teach the Wahhabi form of hatred for all other people in the world except those that adher to the Wahhabi version of Islam. All terrorism experts are united in their belief that the Wahhabi form of terrorism which is al Queda is the most threatening form of terrorism in the world.

Hobit wrote:
Hezbollah are Shi'ites, not Sunnis, and therefore are as far removed ideologically and operationally from the Wahabbis as the Catholic IRA is from the right wing fundy militia groups in Idaho.


Why would you make this statement Hobit? Was it to shift attention from al Queda, Wahhabism and bin Laden------to Hezbollah?



http://kyl.senate.gov/legis_center/subdocs/sc062603_alexiev.pdf
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2003 11:38 pm
Percy, I have no vested interest in Wahabbism like you seem to. I prefer to look at the whole problem of terror in the ME. Your fixation on Wahabbism to the exclusion of anything else is getting tiring. If you were to read the article I referred to, you would find the Alexiev report cited as a source.

Several factors make Hezbollah more dangerous; among those factors are the number and frequency of successful operations they have carried out, the amount of overt activities they perfrom worldwide, and the fact that they have acheived a certain amount of legitimacy as a political party in Lebanon. In addition, overt state support of their activities by Syra and Iran make Hezbollah more likely to be able to mount sustained campaigns against western targets than al-Quaeda which must always rest and replenish between operations.

You again display faulty reasoning with this sentence:
Quote:
All terrorism experts are united in their belief that the Wahhabi form of terrorism which is al Queda is the most threatening form of terrorism in the world.
.
"All' is usually a very poor choice of words, because, as the Foreign Affairs article points out, it is obvious that not "all" experts agree with you.

Quote:
all madrassa schools, located mostly in Pakistan but are all over the world and financed by Saudi money, teach the Wahhabi form of hatred for all other people in the world except those that adher to the Wahhabi version of Islam.

No, "all" Madrassas are not Wahabbi, not even all of those financed by Saudi Arabia. Again the careless use of the word "all" demonstrates your lack of understanding of the subject.

Quote:
it is obvious, at least to me, that they(Hezbollah) are very narrowly focused and obsessed with Israel.

Not surprisingly, those who actually study this subject disagree with you. Yes, Hezbollah opposses the existence of Israel. However, Hezbollah targets the US with frightening frequency. The Achille Lauro, the Khobar Towers, the Klinghoffer execution, etc... In addition, the militant wing of Hezbollah has branches in most "western" countries.

Quote:
So while Hezbollah may be considered a strong or even dominant terrorist force in the Me it would appear that you want to shift attention away from Wahhabism as the most serious WORLD WIDE threat with cells in every country on the globe.

As I mentioned above, Hezbollah has legitimate, and often overt offices worldwide, including Canada and Mexico. Al Quaeda is a small scale operation compared to Hezbollah. Also, Wahabbism is a "flavour" of Islamic thought, not a terrorist network, therefore the use of the word "cells" in this context displays woeful ignorance.

Quote:
Granted they attacked and killed many of our troops in the barracks bombing in Lebanon but then we were very much involved in aiding the Iraelis therefore we were an obstacle to be removed.

And our continued support for Isreal is the stated justification of this group for its continued efforts aginst US targets. We are still an "obstacle to be removed."

Quote:
Why would you make this statement Hobit? Was it to shift attention from al Queda, Wahhabism and bin Laden------to Hezbollah?

My statement was self-explanatory:Hezbollah are Shi'ites, not Sunnis, and therefore are as far removed ideologically and operationally from the Wahabbis as the Catholic IRA is from the right wing fundy militia groups in Idaho. What part of this statement casued you difficulty?
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 01:15 am
So, after having been founded in the mid-eighteenth century, why did Wahabbists decide to strike the US now, after two and a half centuries? Why didn't they strike the US imediately after it formed? Is is merely that they put the US on a waiting list, and its number was up?
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 01:23 am
Hobit

My response to Steve which you took upon yourself to answer was intended to deal with the " Worldwide" aspects of terrorism but then you quite often do "selective" reading. Hezbollah has been very successful at killing women and children in Israel but have only a handful of successes world wide.

Most experts on al Queda would be more than amused by the way you try to minimize the capabilies and the extent of the threat posed by al Queda.

It is possible that all madrassa schools are not run by Wahhabis financed by Saudia Arabia but you did not provide a source to confirm your opinion.

My two time use of "all" is an unfortunate slip of the kepboard-----I take no responsibility:)

Your other rhetorical criticisms are just that ----- your opinion that something is not so doesn't carry much credence.

I notice you chose not to mention my allegation about the Syria's illegal occupation of Lebanon and the failure of the UN to recognize it as one of the leading causes of contention between Israel and the Arab world is nothing short of criminal. Just another example of the irrelevance of the UN and the implicit intent of all Bush critics to ignore abuses by the enemies of the US.

Your statement about the correlation of Sunni Islam(al Queda) and Shiite Islam(Hezbollah) is self evident. Your inference was that Wahhabism being Sunni was somehow distinct and disconnected from the Shiite form of terrorism and therefore irrelevant. An obfuscation on your part that must be commented upon.

The dangers of the Saudi Gov'ts well financed and orgainzed campaign to spread Wahhabism's hatred around the world is just now becoming recognized and known. It is evident that the Saudi gov't now recognizes the monster they have grown and that it will very likely bring down the House of Saud. That is why we are identifying likely candidates among the Saudi Military who are capable of taking control of the country should the House of Saud crumble.

I must make one thing clear----I don't for a minute underestimate the dangers posed by Hezbollah and the article you cited was a good one. But in all probability we will allow Israel to "deal with" Hezbollah until after the election is over and then the gloves come off with both Iran and Syria-----I hope. Cool Of course that will be after we withdraw most of our troops from countries around the world that don't appreciate us. We will then have plenty to finish the job in Iraq and deal with Syria and Iran.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 01:25 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
hobitbob wrote:
Quote:
I really do not think the trip to Baghdad was just for political reasons, although it is easy to think so and I would usually be the first to jump to that conclusion.

Then what possible reason could he have had for going there?


My guess would be to talk with a representative of Sistani's.

But he apparently didn't meet with anyone. He just did the photo op thing and then left.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 01:29 am
InfraBlue wrote:
So, after having been founded in the mid-eighteenth century, why did Wahabbists decide to strike the US now, after two and a half centuries? Why didn't they strike the US imediately after it formed? Is is merely that they put the US on a waiting list, and its number was up?


They had to wait for us to build ships and planes------you can't ride a camel that far Laughing
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 01:46 am
But, ships have been around for millenia, and planes for about half a century. Why wait so long to strike?
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 01:55 am
perception wrote:
Hobit

My response to Steve which you took upon yourself to answer was intended to deal with the " Worldwide" aspects of terrorism but then you quite often do "selective" reading.

True, I do read selectively. It is a technique known as reading for content. It is a failing we educated folks have. Rather like our horrible habit of not jumping to conclusions. Sigh...too bad we can't be like the pridefully ignorant and react without thinking. Sad

Quote:
Hezbollah has been very successful at killing women and children in Israel but have only a handful of successes world wide.

The "handful," were better planned and executed than the "handful" accomplished by al-Quaeda. What Hezbollah possesses and al-Quaeda lacks is a large infrastructure with ready sources of cash, much of it from state sponsors.

Quote:
Most experts on al Queda would be more than amused by the way you try to minimize the capabilies and the extent of the threat posed by al Queda.

"Most" is an equallyu poor word choice. I wasn't aware I was "minimizing" anything. You are aware that there are over 1,000 organizations that have claimed responsibility for terrorist actions in teh ME in the last 25 years, I assume?

Quote:
It is possible that all madrassa schools are not run by Wahhabis financed by Saudia Arabia but you did not provide a source to confirm your opinion.

Again, an example of poor reasoning. Do you understand when citations are neccessary and when they are not? I didn't think anyone was naive enough to think that Islam was a monolithic entity.

Quote:
My two time use of "all" is an unfortunate slip of the kepboard-----I take no responsibility:)

Are you not responsible for your rhetoric? I calim complete responsibility for my comments. I doubt anyone else here has computers that type their own answers without the writer's input.

Quote:
Your other rhetorical criticisms are just that ----- your opinion that something is not so doesn't carry much credence.

My opinions, especially when I indicate they are based upon research, have the backing of that research.

Quote:
I notice you chose not to mention my allegation about the Syria's illegal occupation of Lebanon and the failure of the UN to recognize it as one of the leading causes of contention between Israel and the Arab world is nothing short of criminal.

Syrias occupation of Lebanon has been addressed by the UNSC frequently in the period 1989-2003. The references to such are available in several places, including the on-line archive of security council position papers and other errata.

Quote:
Just another example of the irrelevance of the UN

Again, you make a generalization with nothing to back it up. Do you consider UN efforts regarding disease, hunger, education, human rights, etc.. to be irrelevent? Why?

Quote:
and the implicit intent of all Bush critics to ignore abuses by the enemies of the US.

Who are these "enemies" you always refer to? My understanding of your definition of an "enemy to the US" from reading your comments is this: An enemy of the United States is anyone who disagrees with our policy. This is fallacious reasoning.

Quote:
Your statement about the correlation of Sunni Islam(al Queda) and Shiite Islam(Hezbollah) is self evident.

Of course it was.

Quote:
Your inference was that Wahhabism being Sunni was somehow distinct and disconnected from the Shiite form of terrorism and therefore irrelevant.

No, you misread the statement. I addressed motivation and membership. Nowhere on this board have I ever considered any terrorism, including that perpetrated by the US, to be irrellevent.

Quote:
An obfuscation on your part that must be commented upon.

And should I indulge in that behaviour I assure you someone with better reading comprehension skills will pick up on it. Obfuscatory acts would include such examples as:
-posting articles without stating sources.
-posting articles without sources and heavily editing them to alter the thesis.
-personal attacks on other posters, such as "you should be shot as a traitor," "You are trying to downplay how evil ___ is," "you Bush haters," etc....

Quote:
The dangers of the Saudi Gov'ts well financed and orgainzed campaign to spread Wahhabism's hatred around the world is just now becoming recognized and known.

It has been recognized in the literature since the early 1980s. the mainstream press has picked up on it since 11th Sept 2001.


Quote:
It is evident that the Saudi gov't now recognizes the monster they grown

Possibly. I consider it more likely that they are participating in publicity to keep outside investors happy.

Quote:
and that it will very likely bring down the House of Saud.

This I doubt. There has never been direct succession among the Saudis, and often the person with the strongest power base wins.


Quote:
That is why we are identifying likely candidates among the Saudi Military who are capable of taking control of the country should the House of Saud crumble.

Who is "we?" Are you aware the US intelligence apparatus does the same thing with every nation, from Canada to Botswana?

Quote:
I must make one thing clear----I don't for a minute underestimate the dangers posed by Hezbollah and the article you cited was a good one.

Of course it was.

Quote:
But in all probability we will allow Israel to "deal with" Hezbollah

I wasn't aware Israel asked for our permission.

Quote:
until after the election is over and then the gloves come off with both Iran and Syria-----I hope.

And your desired solution is....? Those with a fondness for war are frequently those who ignore both history and politics.


Quote:
Cool Of course that will be after we withdraw most of our troops from countries around the world that don't appreciate us.

I don't know many that do appreciate "us" at the moment. I also don't see the US withdrawing troops from Iraq anytime soon.


Quote:
We will then have plenty to finish the job in Iraq and deal with Syria and Iran.

It seems likely the "job" in Iraq is unfinishable in any way preferable to the US. Invading Iran would be just the thing to destroy the democratic advances of the last 15 years. Invading Syria would likely involve the US in a war against most of the Near East, including Jordan, Egypt, and possibly the North African countries and Turkey as well. Not an exceptionally bright plan!
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 06:19 am
hobitbob wrote:
Gelisgesti wrote:
hobitbob wrote:
Quote:
I really do not think the trip to Baghdad was just for political reasons, although it is easy to think so and I would usually be the first to jump to that conclusion.

Then what possible reason could he have had for going there?


My guess would be to talk with a representative of Sistani's.

But he apparently didn't meet with anyone. He just did the photo op thing and then left.


Sistani will only talk through an intermediary to avoid the appearance of collusion with the Americans. Bush probably thought 'hell, Sistani wouldn't pass up the chance to see me and what a photo that would make'. Yeah, holy man and an ass.

I thought you read my post's? I know I don't write that well but there is usually some content.



Quote:
Bush was in Iraq on the 27th. He made a fleeting visit to Baghdad International Airport. Don't let the name fool you- Baghdad Airport is about 20 minutes outside of Baghdad. It's in this empty, desert-like area that no one is allowed to go near. No one knew about it until he was gone and then we were all saying, "Huh? What was that about?!"

Everyone here sees it for what it is- just a lame attempt to try to look good. We actually expected him in Iraq during his Asia tour- he was bound to stop by for a good gloat. I just think the whole thing could have been a little bit less transparent (and I expected it would occur closer to elections).

Seeing him on tv was amusing- so why did he have to sneak into and out of Iraq with such secrecy? Why didn't he walk the streets of the country he helped 'liberate'? Why didn't he at least *hover* above the country he 'liberated'? He constantly claims the situation is much better now than pre-war, so why isn't he taking advantage of our excellent security situation?! We all sat there, watching him garble out the usual stream of words and shook our heads… he's just as much of an ass in Baghdad as he is in Washington.

I am curious about how the troops felt about his presence though… I'm sure the hand-picked group in the airport were elated, but I can't help but wonder about the troops stuck in Tikrit, Najaf, Falloojeh or Mosul… I imagine they'd much rather be at home.

The most amusing thing about his visit was watching Chalabi and Talabani jumping up and down at the airport, cheering and clapping as Bush made the rounds. Muwafaq Al-Rubai'i, also a member of the Governing Council, was just embarrassing- he was standing on tiptoe and clapping like a 5-year-old watching a circus clown. Later, he gushed about how happy the Iraqis were and how delighted the whole country was going to be, like he would know, almost as inaccessible to Iraqis as Bush himself is.
[/size]

Bush must be proud today- two more 'insurgents' were shot dead in Ba'aquba: two terrorist sisters, one 12 years old and the other 15. They were shot by troops while gathering wood from a field… but nobody bothers to cover that. They are only two Iraqi girls in their teens who were brutally killed by occupation troops- so what? Bush's covert two-hour visit to Baghdad International Airport is infinitely more important…

Note: To all of you who sent me Eid greetings- thank you. The number of emails was unbelievable. I'll try to respond soon- be patient- the electrical situation has been a nightmare.



SOURCE
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 06:20 am
Hobit wrote
I
Quote:
t seems likely the "job" in Iraq is unfinishable in any way preferable to the US. Invading Iran would be just the thing to destroy the democratic advances of the last 15 years. Invading Syria would likely involve the US in a war against most of the Near East, including Jordan, Egypt, and possibly the North African countries and Turkey as well. Not an exceptionally bright plan!



Nevertheless, this "War on Terror" is not over with Iraq. Just like it wasn't over with Afghanistan. I don't know where it goes next (there was a coup d'etat in Georgia recently in case anyone was paying attention, which was very convenient for Caspian oil), but I don't see why Iran or Syria should be off the list.

As I've said before, until recently I was very perplexed and confused and damn right annoyed with this World War because I didn't understand it, what prompted it nor could I guess what would happen next.

Well just recently I believe I do have at least a basic understanding of what's going on. I don't approve nor disapprove, but I feel a bit more relaxed about it.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 06:48 am
Quote:
The Lesson of Samarra

By Christopher Scheer, AlterNet
December 2, 2003

"U.S. Sees Lesson for Insurgents in an Iraq Battle," is the headline of a New York Times news report on Tuesday. Detailing the violent ambush in the Iraqi town of Samarra over the weekend, the first sentence of the article reads, "American commanders vowed Monday that the killing of as many as 54 insurgents in this central Iraqi town would serve as a lesson to those fighting the United States."


But what, exactly, are those "lessons?" The answer to that question spells more bad news for both Iraq and the U.S. occupation. [....]

Meanwhile, we are killing and dying in Iraq, while ersatz Brink's truck drivers and bureaucratic spinmeisters try to make sense and bring order to a shattered country with a complex culture and history. On Tuesday, another American soldier was killed when a roadside bomb exploded near his convoy south of Samarra. Since President Bush declared an end to major combat in Iraq on May 1, 189 American soldiers have been killed in action. It is safe to say that many, many more Iraqis have died in that period.


Yet, the president and his PR machine insist that shooting it out with a bunch of thugs in a tiny, crowded Third World city most Americans couldn't find on a map is a way "to teach a lesson."


Rest of story
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 09:16 am
InfraBlue wrote:
But, ships have been around for millenia, and planes for about half a century. Why wait so long to strike?


Because they were quite content to kill other Muslims (mostly women and children) as they conquered the vast majority of the Arabian penninsula and brought all these tribes under the control of Wahhabism.

Your question also illuminates the fact that it took a fanatic like bin Laden to fabricate reasons by distorting the teachings of the Prophet.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 09:50 am
Yeah, well look, on the face of it, this is all primafacious, noncorpus interruptus anyhow.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2003 09:58 am
Quote:
http://www.news24.com/News24v2/Images/logo.gif
Iraqis March Against 'Terror'
05/12/2003 16:19 - (SA)


Baghdad - About 1 000 Iraqis, mostly Shi'ites, rallied in central Baghdad to condemn "terrorism" against Iraqis and United States "liberation" forces on Friday as four Iraqis and a US soldier died in a bomb attack elsewhere in the capital.

Dozens of children aged between five and 10 marched at the front of the protest, with flowers in their hands, under white banners proclaiming in red letters: "Children - innocent victims of terrorism" and: "Terrorism blocks any future for children".

Organiser Sabih Hassan, head of a child protection association set up since the US-led invasion, said they had all "become orphans because of terrorism".

Hassan said the march, the second here in a week, was against "all operations, including those targeting Americans".

"Our children have a vital need for peace and security".

While the protest was under way, four Iraqis and a US soldier died and at least 15 people were wounded when a homemade bomb exploded as an American convoy drove down a crowded shopping street in Baghdad.

Forced out of business

The "Iraqi democratic trend", set up after the war by tribes in the Shi'ite areas of Karbala and Babel in central Iraq, organised the demonstration, said general secretary Aziz al-Yassiri.

Sheikh Abdul Jalil Cherhani, 55, a leading member of the group said: "We are against those who kill Iraqis, those who fight the Americans who liberated the country."

Abed Salman Ali, 43, a former second-hand clothes dealer said he had joined the demonstration to protest against the insecurity that has forced many street vendors like him out of business.

"It doesn't matter who the target is. This violence is blocking the reconstruction of our country," he complained.

Police escorted the demonstrators as they marched down Saadoun Street, the capital's main commercial thoroughfare, on the Muslim day of rest.

But no US military presence was visible, unlike the last such demonstration a week ago.

The protestors marched in groups of around 100, each carrying the banners of their tribes.

A series of similar demonstrations have been organised around Iraq in recent days with the coalition's blessing.



http://www.news24.com/Images/Source_Images/logo_afp.jpg
0 Replies
 
 

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