Thompson on the rise

Any of that would be better than leaving them on their own.

I don't know, either the Sunni or Shi'ite militant groups.

I can't guess who's going to win the genocide show-down, but I know it's going to happen.

No, niether would. Iraq needs to govern itself.

That's pretty vague...the "Sunni or Shi'ite militant groups", that encompasses even their present police force. Fact is, Iraq doesn't want to be divided up, and it wants to govern itself. And I hate to break it to you, but using your own line, learning from history, the one that matters, Iraq's, both Sunni and Shi'ite will come together when they need to. There is no drive to eliminate the other sects. Most of the problems now, and why Iran can be so instrumental in turning up the rebelious heat in the region is due to our occupation of Iraq.

Sure it does.

When it can.

Until then, we should fill the power vacuum they can't yet.



Wow, you don't even know who's fighing each other over there, do ya?

Iran is playing a hand, but they're not even a quarter of the mess.

Trust me kid, I know who is fighting and where, please don't try and tell soemone that has been there how it is there. I suggest you brush up on them if you think that simply staying in Iraq is going to stop them.

I've never said it's going to stop 'em, now have I? It's never going to stop them, because the Surrender Monkies keep reassuring the enemy that we'll be gone before long, and when that happens, they get to roam the streets openly, fighting each other.

But if the Surrender Monkies were to stop, or we were to somehow tell the insurgents we ain't leavin' for a while, it would be done in a few months, I promise you this.

Once we leave, it's going to be open fighting. Don't underestimate the importance of our forces there.

What if the slogans are true?

You lose all credit using the neocon surrender monkey slogan.

First of, there is no war going on in Iraq. The war is over, we invaded, removed, and executed Saddam, and installed a new government, war is over. Iraq is a police action, and nation building. You can't surrender, if you won the war.

On that note, your stance is that insurgent resolve is strengthened by a timeline, as they are just laying in wait for the U.S. Forces to leave so they can pounce on the feeble government and implement rule.

This defies logic, since their resolve, and mission is to remove us. One could equally argue that leaving would actually defuse a lot of tensions in the region, and let the inevitable hardtimes start while we are still mission capable.

Really? That's wierd, I only know two people who have used that slogan.

1. Me.
2. Another libertarian.

You can surrender if you have an obligation. I don't care about Saddam. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I care about our obligation. That's it. That's all. Got it yet?

It means they know we're going to lose, no matter what.

Wow, for someone who's been there, you're pretty ignorant of the situation.

Remember that whole "civil war" dealio that was in the media a few months back?

That means they're fighting each other.

It's Sunni against Shi'ite, mainly. Of course, we're an enemy, but that wouldn't be an issue if we left. It would just be them, and them.

I hear it a lot from neocon lapdogs, get out more.

I do not care about Iraq. If Bush wanted to start a war, he can go police them till they are big enough to change their own diapers, and you can join him if you feel our "obligation" to them is worth it, or more important than our own country. I do not.

No matter what? Then why stay, thanks for backing up the whole might as well leave because it's hopeless idea.

For someone that can't even buy cigearettes you seem to think you know a lot about the situation, and you don't. First hand experiance trumps your "book smarts". Seriously, have you ever even spoken to an Iraqi? I've talked to quite a few.

OH NOEZ tH3 MSM says theer's civil warZ a comin'!!! The civil war that everyone fears is because of violence, caused on Iraqis, by those that want us to leave. They ("insurgents") attack Iraqis, victims get mad, and attack back, and anti American sentiment grows. Our continued presence only amplifies the ability of those tactics to be effective.

There wasn't all out civil war before we invaded, do you think that is because good ol' Saddam was in charge? Nope, it's because Iraqis are Iraqi first, then shi'ite/Sunni. Sure, it's had it's share of coup d'etats, and political strife, but there has never been an all out effort to cleanse itself of the other sects, even with Saddams attacks on the Kurds in mind. Sorry, but they aren't just killing each other because they are different sects. Granted, the sunnis are probably feeling pissed about the fact that the government is mostly Shia lead, too bad for them that that is the majority there. Violence begets violence. Do you seriously think that staying in Iraq is going to do anything more than continue to foster violence? Or that ten years from now, or twenty years from now, they are just going to snap and go "Damn, Americans rock!!! What were we doing trying to oust them from our country?!?!! Crazy us." Future diplomacy is going to go a LOT further than rule by force.

Iraq will fail if it lets itself fail.

I don't care about Bush. At all. I cared before the war started, but now that it HAS started, it's too late. We failed to stop him. Now our failure is our obligation.

We're going to run away. If we were determined to stay we could win.

But we're not going to.

Again, I'm just honest.

Nope. But I also know people who come back from Iraq claiming the culture is full of baby-raping-blood-drinking murderers.

And once we leave those people remain, and they're still fighting each other.



Tell me, why are Shi'ite's killing Sunnis and the other way aroudn NOW? Is it just coincidence?

The honest people of that country cannot sustain. It's simply not possible.

His failure is your obligation. I have no obligation whatsoever to Iraq, or any Iraqi. I do have an obligation to make our country better in any way that I can, and that does not include caring, or looking out for the welfare of Iraq.

Win what? the war is ***ing over. You do not "win" a police state, or another countries "civil war".

I sure hope this is you being facetious.

You don't seem to get it. The majority of the violence is brought on by factions that are against US occupation, and US policy being forced in Iraq. That violence is being brought on the Iraqi people, by Iraqis (and other outside influences) to garner anti American sentiment in efforts to destabilize the fledgling government. They weren't just carbombing each other into oblivion before the invasion, nor were IEDs scattered along the roads.

If you feel you must call it a civil war, than you have to ask yourself....why would we be fighting in it, who's side are we on, and why? Let me give those a go if you would. We would be (are) siding with the majority Shi'ite, which will do what? That's right, lead to MORE insurgency, and actually bolster A.Q., and other anti-American groups strength. And you'd have to ask the question, even if we increase, or maintain troop strength how is it EVER going to be lead to "victory" given the factionalization present in Iraq? This course of action will NOT bring about peace, and or stability in the region. We need to use diplomacy. Iraq has to want to succeed, we can NOT make them want to be better people.

Will not is more a correct term.

Check out the Cheney quote in mah sig :thumbup:

Really? What makes it mine but not yours?

"Winning" in this case is having a stable Iraqi when we leave.

No, I'm saying that people as individuals aren't a reliable source.

You didn't answer my question. Are Sunnis just "some civilians" and Shi'ite just "some civilians" and they're killing each other by accident?

You want to pretend that if we leave they'll hate each other less?

No, they'll hate each other the same.

I don't care about Cheney.

You choose to make it yours. I am under no obligation at all to Iraq, sorry, but I am not.

I know, you care about Iraqis. Jump on a boat and go help them.

You were under no obligation to Iraq when you were there were you? You don't care about Iraq yet you were there?

You choose to make it yours. I am under no obligation at all to Iraq, sorry, but I am not.

You assume that staying is going to somehow cause stability.

Good for you, and while I don't expect that my experiance is going to leverage your opinion, it does make me not care about you hypothysis.

I did answer your question. Now you are just being difficult. Are some American "civilians" killing some American "civilians", yea, does that mean ZOMG AMERICAZ IN DA CIVIL WARZ RUN TO DA HILLZ!!!, no, it does not.

You want to assume that when we leave they'll kill each other more?

If they are going to hate each other the same, what does it matter?

I know, you care about Iraqis. Jump on a boat and go help them.

Yes, you are. It was every American citizen's failure to stop Iraq.

It's going to make it possible for the Iraqis to reach stability.

Congratulations, now even if you have been there, that changes nothing.

Somehow, I don't consider any of that to be a civil war. Why? Because it's generally not multiple groups trying to gain power in the government.

Yes. We won't be there to stop them.

Because we won't be there to stop them.

Nah. I demolished that argument a loooong time ago.

Nope. You seem to think that even if the administration hadn't built up the war fervor it wouldn't have gone in. Wrong. Iraq was in their hearts and minds the day 9/11 happened, a golden opportunity.

Not really. It is however going to continued to fuel anti American sentiment.

Niether do your assumptions.

Once again, as simple as possible. Iraqi...factions...that...want....America...out...attack...their...own...to...insight...more...violence...and...perpetuate...negative...views...of...coalition....forces...along...with...US...policy. There...will...be...no...wholesale...slaughter...if...we...leave.

Like we stop them now. Violence is increasing, not decreasing. Your logic is flawed from the start because they do not want us running their country.

You didn't "demolish" anything. It's easy to cop out when you can't even enlist to fight the war you support, familiar theme around here.

Further reason we're obligated, thanks.



I don't care about anti-American sentiment. I care about our obligation.



I'm making no assumptions.



And...it...is...just...coincidence...that...the...Sunnis...have...a...tendency...to...kill...Shi'ites...and...Shi'ites...a...tendency...to...kill...Sunnis...right?



We do stop them. The killings must be done more discretely as it stands.



Even if I were of age I wouldn't be obligated to join the military.

That's not the obligation of the American citizen.

The obligation of the American citizen is to pay taxes for the military, regardless of whether or not he supports the war going on at that time.

You are pretty much a tool.

You support a war,

and cop out with your "I am only obligated to pay taxes" BS,

but yet feel others are obligated to go fight it,

but not you as long as you pay taxes.

You rail on about how you "care about our obligation", but don't want to put your own ass on the line, typical coward. Million bucks says your tune would do a 180 if military service were compulsory.