16
   

Looking for rommel quotes

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2011 03:41 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
THAT is new substantive information.
Does "the decoration of button holes that only officers wore" mean junior officers and field grade officers??


Indeed. I've never read such.

What I know is that Frederick the Great introduced the "Rabatte" ... I don't know the English term, but it is to be seen on the (original) blue part of pic below
http://i54.tinypic.com/2wobzoy.jpg

This was changed again in 1798: the became integrated part of the jacket - thus, button wholes and buttons were only ornaments.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 03:53 am
@OmSigDAVID,
http://freymann.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/7-ftg2.jpg

http://freymann.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/6-ftg2.jpg

As you can see from the first picture, the drummers of the 26th Infantry even had the tassel type decoration on their lace .

In the second picture, the button hole decorations can be seen on filed officers of some units and not others .

I have surmised that the 26th Infantry had the button loops similar to some other units, but at this stage it was still comparatively plain compared to much later when it was used for general and staff officer rank throughout the army .
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 04:02 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:
THAT is new substantive information.
Does "the decoration of button holes that only officers wore" mean junior officers and field grade officers??


Indeed. I've never read such.

What I know is that Frederick the Great introduced the "Rabatte" ... I don't know the English term, but it is to be seen on the (original) blue part of pic below
http://i54.tinypic.com/2wobzoy.jpg

This was changed again in 1798: the became integrated part of the jacket - thus, button wholes and buttons were only ornaments.
Yes, Walter. I recognize it from US Army uniforms of the 18OOs,
and continuing (last I checked) into today, as formal Dress Uniforms.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 04:10 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
http://freymann.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/7-ftg2.jpg

http://freymann.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/6-ftg2.jpg

As you can see from the first picture, the drummers of the 26th Infantry even had the tassel type decoration on their lace .

In the second picture, the button hole decorations can be seen on filed officers of some units and not others .

I have surmised that the 26th Infantry had the button loops similar to some other units, but at this stage it was still comparatively plain compared to much later when it was used for general and staff officer rank throughout the army .
Thank u, Ionus. It looks like u FOUND the origin of that collar insignia.
I see the tassle on the end of each buttonhole.
He is described as a "Field officer".
American Field Grade Officers
are majors, lieutenant colonels, and full colonels ( O-6 )

I wonder by what reasoning,
German officers of general grade,
and field marshalls copied that for use
onto their collar insignia,
to indicate their respective ranks ?

I don 't get the idea that the illustrated officers were field marshalls.
ANYWAY, that was a SPECTACULAR find!!!!!
Thank u for your very successful efforts!





David
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 04:28 am
@OmSigDAVID,
The illustrated officers are regimental officers, of ensign, lieutenant, captain equivalent ranks . And one Field Officer . But I think the link is proven with the regiment musician also wearing the tassel part on the end of their lace .

I enjoyed the research and am glad you liked the result .
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 04:32 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
The illustrated officers are regimental officers, of ensign, lieutenant, captain equivalent ranks. And one Field Officer. But I think the link is proven with the regiment musician also wearing the tassel part on the end of their lace.

I enjoyed the research and am glad you liked the result.
VERY GOOD of u, Ionus!





David
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 05:11 am
@Ionus,
Well, the "grenadier fifer, Reg. No. 26" must be of a later period:
until 1806, the Regiment No. 26 wasn't a Grenadier Regiment (and afterwards, it didn't exist anymore)
Quote:
Infanterieregiment No. 26 (1678/2)
* Regiment zu Fuß (1715). 1714 Curt Hildebrand von Löben, 1730 Henning Alexander von Kleist, 1749 Dietrich Richard von Meyerinck, 1758 Carl Heinrich von Wedel, 1760 Christian Bogislav von Linden, 1764 Anton Abraham von Steinkeller, 1778 Hans Christoph von Woldeck (ab 1782: „Alt-Woldeck“), 1789 Philipp Albrecht von Schwerin, 1795 Carl Leopold von Larisch. Standort: Berlin.


Grenadiers were in "Stehende Grenadier-Bataillone", numbered "Stehendes Grenadier-Bataillon I" up to "Stehendes Grenadier-Bataillion VI"

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 05:21 am
@Walter Hinteler,

All the insigna of the Infantrie Regiment No 26 (Regiment zu Fuss) between 1749 and 1778, under the commanding officers von Meyerinck and von Steinkeller:
http://i53.tinypic.com/28jeefc.jpg
Transcript:
Regimentschefs:
Dietrich Richard von Meyerinck (1749-1758)
Anton Abraham von Steinkeller (1764-1778)

Offiziere: Stickereischleifen
12 auf der Brust
4 unter der Brust
8 auf die Ärmel
4 auf die Patten
4 in der Taille
2 hinten
-------------------------
34 Stück kosten 12 Rtlr.
(6/2/4/2/1 + 2 seitlich in der Taille)

Unteroffiziere: Tressenschleifen
4 in der Taille
2 hinten
12 auf der Brust
4 auf die Ärmel
-------------------------
22 Stück
(6/2/2/-/1)

Mannschaften: Bandschleifen
4 in der Taille
2 hinten
12 auf der Brust
4 auf die Ärmel
--------------------------
22 Stück
(6/2/2/-/1) Tambour-Schnüre


Source: Deutsches Museum, Militaria-Sammlung ('German Historical Museum, militaria collection')

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 05:27 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
All the insigna of the Infantrie Regiment No 26 (Regiment zu Fuss) between 1749 and 1778, under the commanding officers von Meyerinck and von Steinkeller:
http://i53.tinypic.com/28jeefc.jpg
Transcript:
Regimentschefs:
Dietrich Richard von Meyerinck (1749-1758)
Anton Abraham von Steinkeller (1764-1778)

Offiziere: Stickereischleifen
12 auf der Brust
4 unter der Brust
8 auf die Ärmel
4 auf die Patten
4 in der Taille
2 hinten
-------------------------
34 Stück kosten 12 Rtlr.
(6/2/4/2/1 + 2 seitlich in der Taille)

Unteroffiziere: Tressenschleifen
4 in der Taille
2 hinten
12 auf der Brust
4 auf die Ärmel
-------------------------
22 Stück
(6/2/2/-/1)

Mannschaften: Bandschleifen
4 in der Taille
2 hinten
12 auf der Brust
4 auf die Ärmel
--------------------------
22 Stück
(6/2/2/-/1) Tambour-Schnüre


Source: Deutsches Museum, Militaria-Sammlung ('German Historical Museum, militaria collection')


For sure, that is a very, very CLEAR representation
of what we were discussing: the field marshalls' collar insignia of rank.
Any clue as to the reason
that that field marshalls wanted
their ranks to be represented by that buttonhole symbol ??





David
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 05:48 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Just to make it clear for me:

- to what fieldmarshalls are you referring?
And when you are referring to "buttonwholes" (if that is what I know: "a bound or stitched slit or a loop through which a button is passed"): there haven't been any regulations about it before 1806. (See my above picture, for instance)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 06:23 am
@Ionus,
According to Hans Bleckwenn: Die friderizianischen Uniformen: 1753 - 1786; Dortmund, 1986 (The uniforms of the Frederician Era 1753 - 1786:

Quote:
Das Regiment trug Mitte des 18. Jahrhunderts eine blaue Uniform mit roten Aufschlägen und gelben Knöpfen. Auf der Brust und den runden Ärmelaufschlägen befanden sich 6 paarweise zugespitzte gelbe Bandlitzen. Die Mütze der Grenadiere war weiß mit einem weiß-roten Püschel. Der Beschlag war gelb. Die Regimentsfahne war gelb mit weißem Flammenkreuz.


Blue uniform with red ornaments and yellow buttons, white hat ...

They did have grenadiers [my bad], but these grenadiers built an own grenadier batailion together with the grenadiers of the regiment No.13, and from 1760 onwards together with regiments Nos 13, 19, 25.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 06:38 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I see.
That was probably before the general field marshalls
began to use that insignia of rank.





David
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 08:19 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Well, the "grenadier fifer, Reg. No. 26" must be of a later period:
until 1806, the Regiment No. 26 wasn't a Grenadier Regiment (and afterwards, it didn't exist anymore)
I think you will find it was a grenadier company . Later, a lot of armies amalgamated grenadier companies into special grenadier regiments, usually for shock action rather than throwing grenades .
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 08:23 am
@OmSigDAVID,
It was originally chosen as a rank symbol for generals, later for field marshalls, and then it had the third "device" added to its side to distinguish it from the generals and their two "devices" .
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 09:00 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
I think you will find it was a grenadier company . Later, a lot of armies amalgamated grenadier companies into special grenadier regiments, usually for shock action rather than throwing grenades .


I'm not sure about your knowledge in German, but it was called "Infanterie-Regiment zu Fuss".
There were 'Grenadier Regimenter' at the very same time.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 09:03 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

It was originally chosen as a rank symbol for generals, later for field marshalls, and then it had the third "device" added to its side to distinguish it from the generals and their two "devices" .


Well, you must have better sources than I have here in Germany.(Especially in the various Prussian museums I've online access to.)

Would you mind sharing your source for above opinion?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 09:11 am
@Walter Hinteler,
re those 'oak tree leaves':

I've only just now remembered that I've got some here, too - in original.
(One is from a Police General and Higher SS-Officer, but that's a different story.)

I've taken a photo from (one part of) the belt buckle of a navy medical officer (in the rank of a lieutenant). Date: 1898
Normal insigna (online source, though I have stuff here as well )
http://i53.tinypic.com/1z31lip.jpg

Now the belt buckle ... with leaves
http://i52.tinypic.com/2i90zn8.jpg

I think, all those ornaments were ... just ornaments, without any deeper behind it than being ornamental.
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 09:15 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
I'm not sure about your knowledge in German, but it was called "Infanterie-Regiment zu Fuss".
There were 'Grenadier Regimenter' at the very same time.
I'm not sure how that disagrees with anything I have said . Is there some addition you wish to contribute ?
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 09:18 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
From 1900 Prussian generals had worn ornate collar patches embroidered in a style called alt-Larisch, which had first been worn in the 18th century by the 26th (älterer von Larisch) Infantry Regiment; the Reichsheer and the Wehrmacht continued the tradition. These devices, sometimes called Arabesken (arabesques), were embroidered in gold bullion or golden synthetic Celleon on Hochrot (scarlet) backing.
Field Marshal

Field Marshals wore the same Arabesken as generals until April 1941, when they were authorized a longer variant with three rather than two iterations of the repeating pattern, for a total of six "prongs." In some cases GFM did not bother to replace their generals' tabs, or did so only on their dress uniforms.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_German_Army_Ranks_and_Insignia
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2011 09:21 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The belt buckle with leaves depicts the Laurel Leaf... it has a totally different history to the Oak leaf when used on military uniforms .
 

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