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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Those "Larisch Stickerei" (there's no "alt" ['old'] are known as well as "Alt-Preussische Stickerei".

The very first time these "Stickereien" were used, was with the [Prussian] 26th Infantry Regiment, one of the "old Prussian" regiments.

The last commander was Major General (later General-lieutenant) Carl Leopold v. Larisch. Since regiments were named after their commanding officers - the 'Kragenspiegel' (this term is only used after 1945) was named 'Larisch'.

It was used in this regiment since 1714 as a rank-sign for officers. (The regiment was dissolved in 1806 - part of it was transferred to the III: Corps, the reservist joined the 1rst West Prussian Regiment.

Thank u, Walter. What does that design represent??

Is that supposed to be a TREE ?

or something else ?

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Oak tree leaves.

That it looks like a tree is ... coincidence.
It changed during the years, since it really was 'manfactured' (=handmade)

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Oak tree leaves.

That it looks like a tree is ... coincidence.
It changed during the years, since it really was 'manfactured' (=handmade)

Actually, it's called "Arabesque interlaced ornaments".

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@Walter Hinteler,

Addendum:

In 1900, Emeperor William ordered the new design of the "Kragenspiegel", which is now known as "Larisch-Stickerei" or "Altpreußisch".

However, 'they' (I don't think that it was William personally) used the rank sign and insignia book from the time of Frederick the Great.
A certain General-Lieutenant Henning Alexander von Kleist was the commanding officer of the 26th in 1730.
Historically correct, that kind of 'embroidery' ("Stickerei") should be called von-Kleist-Stickerei. But since "Larisch-Stickerei" has been the official Prussian term for it ...

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@Walter Hinteler,

good stuff

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@panzade,

panzade wrote:

good stuff

YES! Please accept my thanks, Walter!!

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

You're welcome.

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So Walt, where is the answer to the original two questions ?

Does anyone know exactly what that represents??

AND

Does anyone know the origin of it ??

You say it has changed but what was the original basis for its design ? I have found some similarity to the Larisch coat of arms at the time... did it come from there ? I am trying to find the original badge (26 Infantry Regt circa 1740) it may have derived from... can you help ?

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Presumably, the tailors,
who were stitching with the gold thread
understood what thay were doing.

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@OmSigDAVID,

What I have found suggests the original was a unit badge . As such it would have been stamped metal, but you are right that once the tailors got in the act it could change considerably .

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

What I have found suggests the original was a unit badge.
As such it would have been stamped metal, but you are right that once the tailors got in the act it could change considerably.

Thay were preparing rank insignia for VIPs: general officers, including field marshalls.
I 'm sure that thay were very careful
in what thay were doing with that solid gold bullion thread.
Thay must have known what pattern to emulate.
Of course, insignia of officers of the same rank
had to match exactly. Apparently, for some unknown reason,
thay were symbolizing OAK LEAVES. I can 't imagine the reason for that.

( Yea, I know that majors in the US Army use gold oak leaves
and Lt. Colonels use silver oak leaves, tho I know not the reason for that. )

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

So Walt, where is the answer to the original two questions ?

My name is Walter.
And I don't answer such demandant questions when directed at me.

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

You say it has changed but what was the original basis for its design ? I have found some similarity to the Larisch coat of arms at the time... did it come from there ? I am trying to find the original badge (26 Infantry Regt circa 1740) it may have derived from... can you help ?

As written above: the original basis for the 'Kragenspiegel' of the Prussian 26th Regiment was done during the period of the commanding officer von Kleist.

The original 'Kragenspiegel' is mentioned and shown in a couple of these books:

Bleckwenn, Hans, Die Uniformen der Preußischen Infanterie 1753-1786, Teil III/Bd. 3, Osnabrück 1973

Bleckwenn, Hans, Die friderzianischen Uniformen 1753-1786, Bd. I Infanterie I, Osnabrück 1984

Boltze, Eberhard; Die Infanterie Friedrichs des Großen nach dem Stande von 1785 nebst Rückblick bis 1740, Dresden,1927 [here: pp. 27, Annex III and IV]

Brauer, M.; Heer und Tradition / Heeres-Uniformbogen , Berlin 1926 -1962

Engelmann, Joachim, Günter Dorn, Die Infanterie-Regimenter Friedrich des Grossen, Podzun-Pallas, 2000

Funcken, Liliane und Fred, Les uniformes de la guerre en dentelle
Die Bewaffnung und Ausrüstung der Armee Friedrichs des Großen: Eine Dokumentation aus Anlaß seines 200. Todesjahres, 2 erw. Auflage, Raststatt 1986

Guddat, Martin; Grenadiere, Musketiere, Füsiliere: Die Infanterie Friedrichs des Großen, Herford 1986

Menzel, Adolf v.: Die Armee Friedrichs des Großen in ihrer Uniformierung, Berlin 1851-1857

Schirmer, Friedrich; Die Heere der kriegführenden Staaten 1756-1763, published by KLIO-Landesgruppe Baden-Württemberg, Neuauflage 1989

You can get at least some in your local or university library

1 Reply

@Ionus,

It was a unit sign - like most collar badges later as well. (Especially in WWII)

It was stitched, to make it similar to the unit signs on uniforms of the Middle Ages and early Modern Times.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Alright Walter, sorry you are feeling so sensitive... but if you think English sounds demanding at times, you should try German . Razz

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

the original basis for the 'Kragenspiegel' of the Prussian 26th Regiment was done during the period of the commanding officer von Kleist.

Do you know which period he was CO for ? All I have found is the following :

Infantry Regiment Nr. 26

Most of Infantry Regiment Nr. 26 surrendered at Erfurt. Some sources state that the unit was attached to Ruchel’s corps.

25.03.1778: Woldeck, Generalmajor [later Generalleutnant] Hans-Christoph von (1712-1789)

12.07.1789: Schwerin, Generalmajor Philipp-Adolph von (1738-1815)

04.06.1795: Larisch, Generalmajor [later Generalleutnant] Johann-Karl-Leopold von (1734-1811) [1]

[1] Larisch had been awarded the Pour le Merite in 1789.

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I have found a uniform from Frederick the Greats time and the device seems to come from LAPEL button holes, not a unit badge . The end part that looks like the tail of a comet is actually a tassel on the outboard end of the button loop . The extended oval shape in the middle is the button hole . The shape coming out of the top and bottom of the button hole is not yet 100 % identifiable (yet) . None of the uniforms I have found so far have anything that looks like a leaf at this early stage so it may be a later invention .

The whole device is part of the decoration of button holes that only officers wore . The original seems to be more of the knot that appeared on shoulders rather than the oak leave appearance it has later . Still working....

1 Reply

@Ionus,

The regiment was raised on December 10, 1714, based on the bataillions Truchses and Heyden.

Infanterieregiment No. 26 (1678/2)
Regiment zu Fuß [foot regiment] (1715).
1714 Curt Hildebrand von Löben,
1730 Henning Alexander von Kleist,
1749 Dietrich Richard von Meyerinck,
1758 Carl Heinrich von Wedel,
1760 Christian Bogislav von Linden,
1764 Anton Abraham von Steinkeller,
1778 Hans Christoph von Woldeck (ab 1782: „Alt-Woldeck“),
1789 Philipp Albrecht von Schwerin,
1795 Carl Leopold von Larisch.

The "Musterbuch" (picture book for uniforms) was edited/published with uniforms from the Kleist command.

Since 1713, uniforms for all Prussian military commands were manufactured in the 'Königliches Warenhaus' (Royal Store House) in Berlin

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Most of Infantry Regiment Nr. 26 surrendered at Erfurt. Some sources state that the unit was attached to Ruchel’s corps.

The regiment was partly disbanded in October 1806 after the capitulation of Erfurt. The main part got under with the Corps Blücher, while the "Gedienten" (reservists) became part of the [formerly (1772) Grenadier-Regt. Graf Kleist v. Nollendorf Nr.6] 1. Westpreussisches Regiment

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

I have found a uniform from Frederick the Greats time and the device seems to come from LAPEL button holes, not a unit badge . The end part that looks like the tail of a comet is actually a tassel on the outboard end of the button loop . The extended oval shape in the middle is the button hole . The shape coming out of the top and bottom of the button hole is not yet 100 % identifiable (yet). None of the uniforms I have found so far have anything that looks like a leaf at this early stage so it may be a later invention.

The whole device is part of the decoration of button holes that only officers wore. The original seems to be more of the knot that appeared on shoulders rather than the oak leave appearance it has later. Still working....

THAT is new substantive information.
Does "the decoration of button holes that only officers wore" mean junior officers and field grade officers??

So far as we know, from use in the 20th Century,
that design symbolized only general grade officers and field marshalls.

David

2 Replies

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