Health Insurance versus Health Care

@Dave Allen,

Dave Allen;143754 wrote:

They are not an actor and even if they were, an aspect of socialism does not make one Joe Stalin.

Who is an actor? Is the government running industry or not?
And yeah, wanting state capitalism makes you like Stalin in that aspect.
Nobody is suggesting you want to shut off food supply to the Ukraine. I'm saying you want state capitalism.
Being a vegetarian makes you like Hitler. What does the argument that vegetarians don't want to kill Jews change about that?

1 Reply

@EmperorNero,

EmperorNero;143755 wrote:

Being a vegetarian makes you like Hitler. What does the argument that vegetarians don't want to kill Jews change about that?

Precisely, so the arguement that "X IS LIKE THE SOVIET UNION!!!" is a crap one.

---------- Post added 03-25-2010 at 06:05 PM ----------

EmperorNero;143755 wrote:

Who is an actor? Is the government running industry or not?

Ideally I would say the government influences all industries to varying degrees according to the needs of the moment.

1 Reply

@Dave Allen,

Dave Allen;143756 wrote:

Precisely, so the arguement that "X IS LIKE THE SOVIET UNION!!!11!!!" is a crap one.

But x is like the soviet union.
The argument "it's not like the soviet union because we don't also want y" is a crap one.

1 Reply

@EmperorNero,

EmperorNero;143758 wrote:

But x is like the soviet union.

Like drinking vodka?

1 Reply

@Dave Allen,

Dave Allen;143760 wrote:

Like drinking vodka?

Correct.
Being a vegetarian makes you like Hitler, even of you don't want to kill Jews.

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@EmperorNero,

EmperorNero;143744 wrote:

The profit motive should be removed? Why do you Marxists think there is a health care system in the first place?
In case you didn't know, that whole communism thing only sounds nice in theory, it didn't work out in the Soviet union.

So - based on the fact that being vegetarian doesn't make you want to kill Jews what is the point of strawmanning people as Marxists and blithering on about Mother Russia?

It's a logical fallacy to assume that because x and z both support y therefore x=z.

1 Reply

@Dave Allen,

Dave Allen;143762 wrote:

So - based on the fact that being vegetarian doesn't make you want to kill Jews what is the point of strawmanning people as Marxists and blithering on about Mother Russia?

What's a straw man about calling people what they are?
Marxists want to distribute goods according to need. State capitalists (communists) want the state to run industry. Which is how they did it in the soviet union. The posters want the state to run health care, and distribute goods according to need, quote: "The profit motive should be removed".

1 Reply

@EmperorNero,

Dave Allen;143762 wrote:

It's a logical fallacy to assume that because x and z both support y therefore x=z.

Sure, but I didn't claim that.

Dave Allen;143756 wrote:

Ideally I would say the government influences all industries to varying degrees according to the needs of the moment.

Government can't influence industry for the better of society. All government intervention into the free market makes society makes poorer than it would otherwise be.

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@Khethil,

Khethil;143722 wrote:

That its For Profit is patently ridiculous; who thinks this is a good idea? Simply amazing.

It makes sence that health care is for profit...the money has to come from somewhere. I think that you are right in that health insurance should be non profit. There are many organizations that would perform the same job as insurance companies. I'm sure that there are pleanty of individuals that would also dedicate a little time every week to the cause.

If we removed health insurance all together...I think that there would be some savings there too! Get rid of the middle man...all they do is add more labor (and possible costs) to the equation. Possibly it should just be the person and their doctor involved in the deal without the middle man.

Quote:

The public option, which was proposed initially, was the only right move.

This move is like scraping from the bottom of the barell! I am somewhat amazed at this concept...but not too much. This is a simple solution to a complex problem. This solution is far from the best.

It reminds me of TARP where the moto was 'Lets just throw money at the problem'! Any 5 year old can come up with that solution. America has some smart people in it (I think) and all we can come up with is some dopeheads sitting around in a dunce hat throwing money at the stupid Americans.

Quote:

But beyond all this talk, the biggest personal impact I've felt is the deepest shame for all the hateful polemics now being spewed from the right.

It is sad that you are so unaware of the hate and disregard for humanity on the left too.

Quote:

It's embarrassing because virtually all its content comes from people who don't know what the facts are.

Welp...here's someone who knows a lot about human suffeing, humanity, phsycology, and human actions. I've been at this for a while and have far more insight and perspective than I would like. Sometimes I wish that I could make it go away...but I can't give it back. So if you want to talk to somebody who can provide good guidance in these areas then please let me know.

Quote:

The leverage the media blitz combined with the congressman and senators receiving huge campaign handouts from medical industry is enormous; and the backlash has evoked the worst in us - the most hate, the most vicious slanders and (as I saw this morning) now death threats and vandalism.

I know how you feel! Those dang pharmaceutical companies - they provided so much money to pass this bill because of their greedy motives. I wish that politicians would do what is best for the people and quit passing bills according to lobbyist demands!

Quote:

It destroys our unity (they keep braying), injures our pride (bray, bray) and removes our ability to work through problems rationally (braaay! braay!). Civility has left the office; please leave a message.

Hate will find a way, it always has and always will.

I could not have said it any better. Hate, tretchery, disdain for American lives...they fill the halls of congress...the decay is like a plague. The hate will only get worse as this bill pits one American against another. I am now obligated to approach Americans who are smoking and demand that they quit. I must approach anyone with a BMI of over 25 - 30 and ask if they have a gym membership as I rob them of the 20 twinkies they just bought.

The politicians need to either fix their mess or provide us with justice and force all Americans to be repectful of their impact on others. If the government does not recant and castigate the plague that they've unleashed, then at least they could be fair minded and quarentine all Americans to their homes - away form the tanning salons, unable to buy those dreaded cancer sticks (cigerettes) and fattening foods (sweets, pasta, etc...). Only in our homes will we be safe from doing dumb stuff like drunk driving or just running a red light and killing or maming a family of 4. Each home should be equipped with an elliptical and some dubbells and they should be electronically monitored to be certain that every American gets at least 2 - 3 hours of exercise a week.

I am with you Khethil - the government should either go back and fix their mess or finish the job they started. If the government wants to kill a society, then they should do it quickly. As it stands they wish to breake one bone at a time and let us suffer until we slowly suffocate on our own blood.

1 Reply

@cruise95,

The argument in America from outside appears very much about ideology rather than common sense. Calling me an extreme left wing nutter is a sign of these entrenched foolish attitudes. If you could halve the expenditure of all those who pay for their health care and still provide for everyone, why would that be so much against any ones ideology.

In the UK, we who can pay do pay and it costs us a third of what it costs Americans. If you want to upgrade and have private treatment you can and it would still be cheaper than America. It should not be about politics but common sense. When basic health care in America, the richest nation on earth, for the poor is worse than many third world countries, you should be ashamed.

2 Replies

@xris,

Quite frankly, XRIS, the issue isn't just about the cost of healthcare for the citizen. You may have noticed that our economy is slumping. Now, I've done studious research on this bill, and I really don't understand how we're paying for this. Also, comprehensive student loan reform tucked into the bill?

There's just too much going on, and too few people aware of what the bill means (including myself, and I've honestly made an attempt).

I'm just not a gambling man when it comes to the economic situation of my whole country. This is the exact reason that moderates like myself are so weary. It doesn't seem like anyone really understands this damn thing.

God knows, if the bill just said "we're offering a public option for healthcare and paying for it via X", then there wouldn't be nearly as much fear.

2 Replies

@Rwa001,

Rwa001;143909 wrote:

Quite frankly, XRIS, the issue isn't just about the cost of healthcare for the citizen. You may have noticed that our economy is slumping. Now, I've done studious research on this bill, and I really don't understand how we're paying for this. Also, comprehensive student loan reform tucked into the bill?

There's just too much going on, and too few people aware of what the bill means (including myself, and I've honestly made an attempt).

I'm just not a gambling man when it comes to the economic situation of my whole country. This is the exact reason that moderates like myself are so weary. It doesn't seem like anyone really understands this damn thing.

God knows, if the bill just said "we're offering a public option for healthcare and paying for it via X", then there wouldn't be nearly as much fear.

As I said from outside it looks all about ideology rather than common sense. You are a victim of massive expensive misinformation from rich self interest, mainly the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industries.

Just remember why would they oppose a system for ideological reasoning? corporate interests dont care about ideology , they only care about market opportunities and profit.

What it needs, is a benevolent society that puts its clients above profits and those who choose a social motivated attitude above profits to be competitive in the market. The government could be instrumental in its instigation. This conflict is not necessary. The Quakers who brought this attitude to America. should be your example.

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@BrightNoon,

Quote:

God knows, if the bill just said "we're offering a public option for healthcare and paying for it via X", then there wouldn't be nearly as much fear.

A socialised health care system is not merely ethically appealing (istm), but does lead to some economic benefits.

One of the hidden cost savings of socialised health care is that societies with it tend to have fewer people rendered unrpoductive due to sickness - that niggling problem that distracts you can be checked out for free (at point of sale, of course) and someone too sick to work can be cured and make a contribution to society that he or she may not be otherwise able to.

A workforce that takes fewer days off tends to be more productive, not only for themselves but the company they work for and the economy in which that company operates.

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@BrightNoon,

I dont look at the issue as a question of liberty, but I see it as a matter of common sense. if someone is out of work and has no money for food and loses his house, how will it help him to force him to buy insurance? better to let him die without health care, dont you think? and I know a pension isnt always enough to retire on-because of the need for health insurance or medical care, I personally could not afford to retire and live in america. would it have helped me to also force me to buy insurance? never mind, I already left...

by the way, in the interest of those who live there that are attached to me, I would really like to see the bill-i dont want to read some news report of what it is supposed to be about, can anyone give me a link to the actual bill? the only thing I can see it helping is insurance companies, by forcing people who cant afford it to buy it...and what is the penalty for not buying it if the bill passes I wonder? is this for real? I worked in health insurance 14 years, it is there to make a profit and bottom line is NOT to pay out any money for claims. the government seems to be real big on helping banks, the auto industry and now insurance companies. doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out why, either.

1 Reply

@Rwa001,

Like you, I too am fearful of the effect of this bill on our economy. The government has ruined so many social programs that have such a great impact on our society (see social security and medicare). Also this bill makes so many changes durring such a bad time. No business man would do anything like this! They would take incremental changes so they would now what works and back out if something doesn't pan out.

Rwa001;143909 wrote:

God knows, if the bill just said "we're offering a public option for healthcare and paying for it via X", then there wouldn't be nearly as much fear.

Actually, the fear factor may be just as bad if not worse in this case. The first bill that the senate tried to pass included a public option and that bill was berated. Most people want universal healthcare and most things that the bill proposes. What people fear is the processes and handing over power to the government.

I leasrned a long time ago that power corupts and absolute power corupts absolutely. There should not be a monopoly (and that includes the government). People should be able to live without constantly fearing the government.

1 Reply

@cruise95,

cruise95;144071 wrote:

Like you, I too am fearful of the effect of this bill on our economy. The government has ruined so many social programs that have such a great impact on our society (see social security and medicare). Also this bill makes so many changes durring such a bad time. No business man would do anything like this! They would take incremental changes so they would now what works and back out if something doesn't pan out.

Actually, the fear factor may be just as bad if not worse in this case. The first bill that the senate tried to pass included a public option and that bill was berated. Most people want universal healthcare and most things that the bill proposes. What people fear is the processes and handing over power to the government.

I leasrned a long time ago that power corupts and absolute power corupts absolutely. There should not be a monopoly (and that includes the government). People should be able to live without constantly fearing the government.

If you look at other countries with national health care they may not be perfect but they are beneficial to all its citizens. You can exclude certain government interference but if they assist then they are taking care of tax payers interests.

The perfect model would be a benevolent society that has corporate responsibility, with the clients as their share holders. Socialists and capitalists governments always fear real power being in placed in the consumers hands.

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@salima,

salima;144064 wrote:

I would really like to see the bill-i dont want to read some news report of what it is supposed to be about, can anyone give me a link to the actual bill?

Here's a link: Read The Bill: H.R. 3590 - GovTrack.us

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@xris,

xris;143906 wrote:

In the UK, we who can pay do pay and it costs us a third of what it costs Americans.

You keep repeating that socialized health care is cheaper. But you refuse to make any guess on why that is. It's not that I don't believe you, but we do not know why socialized health care is cheaper. All you say is that the numbers are self-explanatory, because socialized health care so obviously is better.

1 Reply

@EmperorNero,

EmperorNero;144161 wrote:

You keep repeating that socialized health care is cheaper. But you refuse to make any guess on why that is. It's not that I don't believe you, but we do not know why socialized health care is cheaper. All you say is that the numbers are self-explanatory, because socialized health care so obviously is better.

So are you disputing my figures or the notion?

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;144169 wrote:

So are you disputing my figures or the notion?

I absolutely believe you that the cost per capita is less, I wanted to hear a guess why that is.

1 Reply

Health Insurance versus Health Care

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