Yup, in Europe they are more comfortable with big government all right. Civil cervices, like the holocaust.
Nero your blinkered and dogmatic views are becoming quite tedious. You refuse to accept the evidence and just spew out the same rhetoric over and over again. Its blatantly obvious the American health service is not serving its purpose for the majority of its citizens. .
DIARY OF A LIBERTARIAN
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the food and drug administration.
At the appropriate time as regulated by the US congress and kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology and the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the environmental protection agency, using legal tender issued by the federal reserve bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school.
After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the department of labor and the occupational safety and health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.
I then log on to the internet which was developed by the defense advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.com and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.
The Teabagger Socialist-Free Purity Pledge
I, ________________________________, do solemnly swear to uphold the principles of a socialism-free society and heretofore pledge my word that I shall strictly adhere to the following:
I will complain about the destruction of 1st Amendment Rights in this country, while I am duly being allowed to exercise my 1st Amendment Rights.
I will complain about the destruction of my 2nd Amendment Rights in this country, while I am duly being allowed to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights by legally but brazenly brandishing unconcealed firearms in public.
I will foreswear the time-honored principles of fairness, decency, and respect by screaming unintelligible platitudes regarding tyranny, Nazi-ism, and socialism at public town halls. Also.
I pledge to eliminate all government intervention in my life. I will abstain from the use of and participation in any socialist goods and services including but not limited to the following:
I will not tour socialist government buildings like the Capitol in Washington, D.C.
- Social Security
- Medicare/Medicaid
- State Children's Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP)
- Police, Fire, and Emergency Services
- US Postal Service
- Roads and Highways
- Air Travel (regulated by the socialist FAA)
- The US Railway System
- Public Subways and Metro Systems
- Public Bus and Lightrail Systems
- Rest Areas on Highways
- Sidewalks
- All Government-Funded Local/State Projects (e.g., see Iowa 2009federal senate appropriations--http://grassley.senate.gov/issues/upload/Master-Approps-73109.pdf)
- Public Water and Sewer Services (goodbye socialist toilet, shower, dishwasher, kitchen sink, outdoor hose!)
- Public and State Universities and Colleges
- Public Primary and Secondary Schools
- Sesame Street
- Publicly Funded Anti-Drug Use Education for Children
- Public Museums
- Libraries
- Public Parksand Beaches
- State and National Parks
- Public Zoos
- Unemployment Insurance
- Municipal Garbage and Recycling Services
- Treatment at Any Hospital or Clinic That Ever Received Funding From Local, Stateor Federal Government (pretty much all of them)
- Medical Services and Medications That Were Created or Derived From Any Government Grant or Research Funding (again, pretty much all of them)
- Socialist Byproducts of Government Investment Such as Duct Tape and Velcro (Nazi-NASA Inventions)
- Use of the Internets, email, and networked computers, as the DoD's ARPANET was the basis for subsequent computer networking
- Foodstuffs, Meats, Produce and Crops That Were Grown With, Fed With, Raised With or That Contain Inputs From Crops Grown With Government Subsidies
- Clothing Made from Crops (e.g. cotton) That Were Grown With or That Contain Inputs From Government Subsidies
- If a veteran of the government-run socialist US military, I will forego my VA benefits and insist on paying for my own medical care
I pledge to never take myself, my family, or my children on a tour of the following types of socialist locations, including but not limited to:
I will urge my Member of Congress and Senators to forego their government salary and government-provided healthcare.
- Smithsonian Museums such as the Air and Space Museum or Museum of American History
- The socialist Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson Monuments
- The government-operated Statue of Liberty
- The Grand Canyon
- The socialist World War II and Vietnam Veterans Memorials
- The government-run socialist-propaganda location known as Arlington National Cemetery
- All other public-funded socialist sites, whether it be in my state or in Washington, DC
I will oppose and condemn the government-funded and therefore socialist military of the United States of America.
I will boycott the products of socialist defense contractors such as GE, Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics, Raytheon, Humana, FedEx, General Motors, Honeywell, and hundreds of others that are paid by our socialist government to produce goods for our socialist army.
I will protest socialist security departments such as the Pentagon, FBI, CIA, Department of Homeland Security, TSA, Department of Justice and their socialist employees.
Upon reaching eligible retirement age, I will tear up my socialist Social Security checks.
Upon reaching age 65, I will forego Medicare and pay for my own private health insurance until I die.
SWORN ON A BIBLE AND SIGNED THIS DAY OF ____________ IN THE YEAR ______________.
___________________________ ___________________________
Signed Printed Name/Town and State
Nero your blinkered and dogmatic views are becoming quite tedious. You refuse to accept the evidence and just spew out the same rhetoric over and over again. Its blatantly obvious the American health service is not serving its purpose for the majority of its citizens. The simple fact that 60 % of bankruptcies in America are caused by health insurance costs should be giving you reasons to find a better alternative. I dont really care about your extreme views on social misfits deserving no help or the poor should learn from their poverty and suffer the laws of the jungle, its the fact that you refuse to accept certain social programmes help all its citizens, thats what really makes me cringe.
Everyone here familiar with this?
And this?
By all means stick with your bloated, unfair and inefficient system.
There's one thing that your beloved big government does well. - Government was the leading cause of death in the 20th century. Let's put the guys with the guns in charge of health, yes!
Does government mandate how many sunflower seeds there have to be in it? And what the temperature of the oven has to be. Why not, wouldn't we be better off with a little regulation?
Heart disease was the leading cause of of death in the 20th century. Followed by cancer. Every two years as many people die from AIDS as those who died in the Holocaust.
Why isn't food socialised? Well it is to an extent isn't it? Why aren't luxury goods socialised? Because everyone agrees that that would be a bad idea, mainly down to the fact that manufacturing one of everything for everyone isn't even possible.
But comprehensive health care - to higher standards than that provided by insurance companies - is.
It probably does - assuming you have food standards. Cooking time and ingredients for food that is sold in shops are regulated - that's why bread doesn't have lead in it any more.
So, to recap ... You claim the holocaust was a civil service.
You think Canada and Australia are tiny islands.
You're a fantasist - none of that is remotely real or relevant. I'm not even saying this for your benefit anymore - I know you're too far gone. The only reason to point out it out is in the vague fear an innocent lurker might think you had a point, really.
Fair enough, correction: The state was the leading cause of unnatural death. Yes, put the guys who were the leading cause of unnatural death in charge of health.
Did you just make the argument: All those Hitler, Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot murders weren't so bad, just look at hearth disease and cancer! Having a Hitler once in a while is worth it, since statism provides better health care, so those murders and the lives saved by statism cancel each others out and we come out ahead! Yes.
Ah, it's "comprehensive". Now it makes sense! Statism works if it's "comprehensive".
It's the arguments you use to argue that statist health care is cheaper than free market health care. All those arguments apply to all other goods as well.
But only on health care you think it works. How come? Is it that health care is complicated enough to make that mistake, while simpler products don't allow for that mistake?
After the Soviet union failed you were forced to concede that products are not provided cheaper by state enterprise, but health care is elusive enough to still make that argument.
You say everyone agrees that statism would be a bad idea with food or luxury goods, but on health care it magically works. How come?
You didn't address why those mechanisms would work on health care but not on other goods.
I am happy to help out those who actually can't pay for it.
What you are suggesting is that government take over the responsibilities of adulthood...
Bread doesn't have lead in it any more because you make more money selling bread without lead in it.
If breadmaking was as regulated as health care, then government would have to mandate that there's no lead in it. But in the (relative) absence of regulation, the free market takes care of it.
Yes, what makes it not a civil service?
Don't be silly, of course I don't think Canada and Australia are islands. Is that really the level of sophistication you want to debate this on?
Saudi Arabia is a welfare state, Haiti is greatly 'regulated', I never hear you mention those, it's always Iceland, Norway and Luxembourg.
The silliest argument I heard so far was when someone on this forum made the argument that Luxembourg pays doctors and nurses more than the US; oh really, no fricking kidding. Next thing you say that Paris Hilton is a financial genius, since she is so rich.
Of course everybody thinks those who disagree with him are fantasists.
You just don't get it, so you assume we lack your superior intellect and you must lead us into the light against our will.
90 million killed from cigarettes in the developed world during the 20th century - trumping both military and civilian war dead together.
Smallpox was bad too, but it's not a problem anymore. Wonder why? Was it the free market do you think?
You constantly return to this purile strawman of statism. I have explained at length that I do not support gestalt statism, but that various degrees of free market and socialist policy respond with varying successes and limitations based on the circumstances.
You don't seem to be able to debate that - so you build a strawman in the shape of Joe Stalin and argue with that.
But that strawman isn't me. Argue with Joe Stalin all you like, but I'm not where he is.
I advocate a flexible mixed market answering need depending on circumstance - not an eglatatarian/proletarian dictatorship.
You can't manufacture one of everything for everyone.
Do I need to keep repeating it for you?
You cannot make one of each good for everyone.
But you can offer comprehensive healthcare.
What have you done to this end?
What would the US dept of Health and Human services have to say about people trying to sell bread with lead in, I wonder?
A civil service by definition.
Second time of asking - do you actually know what a civil service is?
It's what you said - why did you say it if you didn't mean it?
Because it was the first thing that popped into your head? "I'll strawman all these examples as small island econmies!"
Saudi Arabia is rotten society
To remind you - you continually used the USSR as your sole example of why socialised medicine is BAD.
I am just arguing you'd be better off reforming your health care system along more socialist lines.
The reason I raised Luxembourg was that someone mentioned doctors don't recieve the rewards they deserve under a socialist system, because US doctors tend to be better paid.
So actually, it was directly relevant to point out the Luxembourg's doctors are the best paid in the world - it proves that should you want to ensure high pay for doctors you could copy Luxembourg's model.
You may not want it - I wouldn't - I think doctors are paid well as it is. However, if you think doctors under social systems are poorly paid - Luxembourg proves you wrong.
I often disagree with kennethamy, but I don't think he is a fantasist.
Nero , you have not listened to anything we have said to you, have you? You constantly revert to communism as if we are defending its position in history or in its agenda. Why don't you find a a die hard communist to argue with because you dont want a reasonable debate with reasonable democratic socialists, do you? You will have to accept that you have not won one argument on the comparability of our two systems , instead you want to dilute the debate into semantics, an out dated war of out dated dogma. Your thirty years too late.
No, you haven't been listening. I'm not talking about communism. I am using the same therm for communism and what you kids advocate, but that does not mean my argument is "oh no, it's gonna lead to communism". I am saying your ideology is a mitigated form of communism, which is undeniable. We can then argue about the economic effects and such, but all you people do is object to being compared to communists. You are the ones who bring up communism, all I do is using accurate words instead of doublespeak.
If you don't want this to be about communism, the quit bringing it up. Let's argue about health care in western democracies. Let's take a theoretical free market health care system as the standard. How would making it more socialist, theoretically as well, make it better or cheaper?
Show me where we used communism as a form of defence or reasoning? With your attitude I could attach your political views to Attila the Hun or even Nero. You cant turn my politics in to communist ideology just because I believe in a social economy. The word social was invented long before the common good ideology was proposed.
I have given you questions and answers about the health systems of our respective countries. You backed away the last time you appeared to loosing the debate..You see difficulties in debate and then disappear for a week and then start again as if the debate had never happened.
You did so just a post ago. It's the other way around, I am talking about statism in general, which includes all the nice and fluffy stuff that you want, and you take that to mean that I am talking about communism, and defend your position as if you were attacked you as being communists. We can talk about health care, but you have to accept that it is a form of centrally planned economics. if you scream "I'm not a communist" every time someone asserts the simple fact that socialized medicine is centrally planned economics, we'll never get anywhere.
Nonsense.
If you want to make an argument, make it. If you think I avoided questions, repost them. But claiming I lose the debate is just semantics. Winning arguments does not mean claiming loudly and repetitively enough that you won.
I never use the word communism other than to inform you that socialism is not communism.
Exactly. Nobody claimed that socialism is communism, but you are using the "socialism is not communism" defense against every attack that is mounted against socialism.
Wrong again , its only said when you make the reference, why else would I make the disclaimer? it would not make sense, would it?
Your argument is that socialism, is communism by referring to communist ideology and then attaching it to socialism. You see them as the same apples in different barrels, don't you?
How you can deny something and then confirm it , in one post amazes me.
No look at the words. It being in the same category does not mean it is the same. Why would you pretend to not understand that difference?
