I understand that someone who robs a store, and shoots the clerk down in cold blood, that the murderer wanted the money from the cash register. So what? What follows from that? When asked why he robbed banks, Al Capone replied, "that's where the money is". I understand that too. So what?
I understand that someone who robs a store, and shoots the clerk down in cold blood, that the murderer wanted the money from the cash register. So what? What follows from that? When asked why he robbed banks, Al Capone replied, "that's where the money is". I understand that too. So what?
salima;103963 wrote:you are looking at a very small part of the issue here. this is a superficial question with a superficial answer given by a man who was obviously not a thinker. I would say capone was thinking the question meant "why banks instead of gas stations?" but big al did more than rob-he also killed. he would then find a rationalization for those things, believing he was right.
but the point is why did HE do those things and you and I would not? that is what we need to find out, and only when we understand that will we be able to do anything to stop it. at present all we can do is decide what we wont tolerate in a society and make laws to give us the right to imprison or execute people.
If the object is to prevent violence rather than suffer it, it must understood...As soon as it is judged, the trial is over, and forget taking a lesson from it...
Quote:So why do we have such a huge justice system holding more people per capita than any other country???Our society confuses law with justice and authority with morality...If you swing the majority you can jail people for any number of behaviors having no provable negative effect on society...A lot of our laws are aimed at the behavior of blacks as if smoking the ganja would make kids become negros...Yet; it is not law that makes people moral, and if morality were the aim of law, then laws would all be just, which also means few; because justice is moral, and few laws, and necessary laws equal freedom...Only free people are moral, and only moral people are free...the same is true about the clerk shot down in cold blood and robbed. so why would anyone bother to go to work for money? the majority of people are not killers and thieves-why? do you think it is because of the justice system that they are being deterred?
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i believe there may be a neurological problem in the criminal mind. environment cannot be the cause because there are too many examples of good honest people from bad environments and depraved killers from good environments. it could be a factor in a person who is already neurologically or chemically compromised, but if the person had no physical brainwarp his environment, unless extreme, (like concentration or refugee camp, slavery,
some inhumane conditions existed) should not cause him to become one of the minority who commit crimes both the small and grandiose.
First of all, it was Willie the Actor who said that; and also that it was a waste of his life, spent mostly in prison...
Second, the guy did not do a smash and grab or a stick up... What he did is turn on a government that had clearly turned on his religion... And He did not attack citizens, but those who most make possible our foreign wars with their abundant collateral damage to women and children... We say Law to those people, and forget that their law is older than ours... What we mean is Western Law, which effectively removes people from their right to justice... The reason Islam was such a success in its world is that it did not mess with traditional and primitive methods of settling disputes, or with what all people would consider the cause of dispute, which in a word, is dishonoring some one...
---------- Post added 11-16-2009 at 09:48 PM ----------
They can tell at birth by way of heart rate which children will grow up to be risk takers and criminals... Does it mean they ought to segragate all such people, and build them a prison in advance of their reaching majority??? What we all deserve is justice in our daily lives, only the most necessary laws, and all manor of encouragement to good behavior...Leave a risk taker without education, or employment and crime is likely to follow... You know it is going to happen, so whose fault is it if it does happen...
salima;103984 wrote:The tribal mentality plays a big part in modern society because law breaks down communities, and treats all as individuals...People without communities are without defense from law, or illegality, so they reform communities, as gangs, parties, and associations... It is not a genetic relationship that is the force behind community, but a defense of rights...you mean big al was like a robin hood? or he was like an activist making a statement against foreign policy? some people used to say "who cares, they are all criminals killing each other". and actually they were not taking out a lot of innocent by-standers by percentage count, unless i am mistaken. but they had a tribal mentality in a land where tribal people were exterminated.
Quote:The justice system is misnamed...It is very much the injustice system since it produces injustice...An example is made of people for others who will not take an example, so the punishment exceeds the crime until no punishment can exceed the crime... We have no communities to guide and control our children, so in conflict with law they learn that law will not hurt them, and in fact, they all learn early on to use law against their parents... After slapping their paws for eight years the legal community then begins to throw the book at young criminals...If it is seeking to teach a lesson it teaches the wrong one...as to why we have more prisoners per capita than any other country (i didnt know that) and justice and the legal system, it stinks, and everything will keep on stinking until the human race gets morality right. then we wont need any justice system.
Quote:i havent been able to follow your thoughts, not on this thread and a lot of others, when you say "without freedom". how do you think there can be freedom? you mean it a hermit was living in a cave there would be freedom for him and he would have complete justice, assuming he wasnt on a piece of land some government wanted to build a nuclear reactor or dispossess him for some other goofy reason? whatever it is you mean, i dont see how that is going to make anyone any more ethical than they are if they are locked in prison or a refugee camp. are you suggesting that because he is away from other human beings he cant be immoral? or are you inferring that morality is all a point of view and judgment call by an observer who has his own agenda? i cant seem to get a handle on what you are saying...
The only way there has ever been freedom is with the support of community... Communities exist for a defense of rights, and it is this fact which keeps the United States from being a true community... Our freedom is not defended, and our rights are not defended, our justiice is not defended, and our persons and property are not defended; and so we must associate with many for whom we have no natural affection just to accomplish what government and society should -without a spur in its side...
The point is, that there is no society without morality, because that sense, consciousness of common good as leading to social survival actually is essential to survival...Survival does not happen without moral consciousness, and neither does democracy or freedom... Individuals even as emperors do not guard morality, but are immorality...Communities are morality, and they guard the life of the people...Morality cannot be imposed, but must be accepted by all, which is democracy, so that when democracy dies, morality dies...If people are not free, they take freedom in the only way possible, by attacking law as an expression of morality...We tend to look at moral people as unfree, and this is false...Moral people living in distinct communities are constrained in their behavior toward others, but freedom of behavior within the community, democracy, is assured, along with survival..
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now as for knowing at birth the future of individuals according to their heart rate, i never heard of that. but if it were possible to know who was going to be a serial killer at birth...no, i dont think we should put them in cement diapers and throw them in the river on day one. but i think science should get busy studying (since i am not clear on the heartbeat theory whether they know the why or is it only the who). they need to find out what in the brain makes a criminal, and if it can indeed be corrected we have some issues to look into. i certainly dont suggest doing brain surgery on infants, to steal them away from the nurseries in hospitals against the will of parents like some orwellian nightmare. but it could be a procedure or even a surgery is discovered that would be offered free to any individual from the time of his adult legal age who might have seen through experience that he is getting into a lot of trouble and would like to take that option.
why are we (the technologically advanced nations of the world) not spending government money on studies like this instead of looking at moon rocks and building weapons?
First of all, it was Willie the Actor who said that; and also that it was a waste of his life, spent mostly in prison...
I stand corrected. It was Willie Sutton who uttered that immortal line.
---------- Post added 11-17-2009 at 09:44 AM ----------
An interesting article about Hasan from Slate
Seven salient facts about Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan. - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine
kenneth, it is not an interesting article. it is one person's opinion and a lot of heresay. furthermore it is inflammatory and incorrect on many accounts.
just to address one point, muslims say god is great all the time, it is not only a sign of jihadis rushing to their death. i said it repeatedly during my second eye surgery. we say alhamdolillah when we sneeze, too.
And then, why say it when you are trying to murder many people? That is not like sneezing. Despite prodigious attempts by the Obama administration to prevent an investigation, an investigation is (I hope) going to occur.
because the man was not in his right mind at the time, and he only said something that to him was a part of his daily life and a habit. it did not mean he was doing it in the name of Allah-no one can say what exactly it meant to him at the time, but i would guess nothing at all. but maybe he will explain at the trial because i am sure they will ask.
Allah ho akhbar is also said in the context of our faith that God knows best and whatever happens is in His hands. i could cite volumes of examples of daily life wherein i hear it said.
i thought the original article you posted said that it was the obama administration that was calling for a further investigation...did i read that wrong or has something changed?
Yes. Obama now seems to want to delay the investigation. It is not clear why he does. Have you any particular evidence that Hasan was not in his right mind?
certainly-incontestable evidence: his actions at fort hood. do you honestly believe anyone could do this and be in their right mind?
mind you i am not talking about the legal definition of the word, which is lame.
certainly-incontestable evidence: his actions at fort hood. do you honestly believe anyone could do this and be in their right mind?
mind you i am not talking about the legal definition of the word, which is lame.
Which actions? Murdering people? What makes you believe that a murderer cannot be in his right mind?
Regardless of what Nietzsche said on the subject, madness is the rule, and it is rare that people are not mad in the conduct of their lives... How many times can people be heard saying: If some one did such and such, I would kill them...It does not matter how one fills in the blanks because we are all too ready to kill, and all to ready to have last alternatives first...I have been very close to killing on many occasions, and it was usually about nothing; but The God is also merciful as well as great...Murder may be the only sin I have not committed, but I will count myself happy if I can meet my end having never taken a human life... And then I consider the abortions I may have caused, or the deaths I may have contributed to just by being an American, and I fear God...I have saved a life...If that one could stand for humanity, I would be sanguine...
yes, i mean the murders.
---------- Post added 11-18-2009 at 11:48 AM ----------
yes, i agree that most people are not using the full deck, including myself. but at the same time, i believe there is a difference in the criminal insane mind and the law-abiding insane mind!
i was at one time ready and capable of killing, even had a gun, but people change sometimes. as far as feeling guilt, i believe now that we are all guilty for all the sins of the human race just as much as we can take credit for its accomplishments. in order to judge us fairly it would have to be collectively rather than on an individual basis. i realize this conflicts with religious doctrines but i can find a way around it without apostasiizing or blaspheming or whatever one would call what i just said.
There are people who are "hit-men" who murder for hire. They do it as a business. What is the evidence that they are insane? After all, all you know about them is that they murder for hire. Could it be that you and salima are simply defining murderers as being insane?
There are people who are "hit-men" who murder for hire. They do it as a business. What is the evidence that they are insane? After all, all you know about them is that they murder for hire. Could it be that you and salima are simply defining murderers as being insane?
no, i dont define murderers as being insane. but i am qualifying the act of murder tonearly always be that of someone who was not well balanced.
An interesting article about Hasan from Slate
Seven salient facts about Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan. - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine
Besides, purchasing extra-military weapons is pretty common among soldiers.
Look folks, it's the military: it teaches and trains people to be violent. What else do you expect?
