Probe of Ft. Hood murders

I still can't see where PC stopped an investigation. He didn't want to go to war but that doesn't merit an investigation. From the facts that have come out I can't see how anyone could have guessed that he was going to go on a killing spree.

Hasan is an army major, and also a physician. In fact, a psychiatrist. Majors and physicians are not normally "bullied". Have you any evidence that he was? He had no wife, nor children. We are all entitled to our own opinion, but we are not entitled to our own facts.

sorry, i strayed off topic a bit here. i didnt mean to intimate that the fellow was the victim of bullying.

i was drawing a parallel in the type of situation created by 'school' and 'army' where a person is somewhat isolated and separated from his base of support, the family. he is under pressure to comply and fit in, even if he is in charge. and i think there is a parallel between the kind of emotional breakdown that happens in both types of crises that might be found on more thorough investigation.

i havent read your link yet, i may have other impressions after doing that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/us...EhyV8llhACvHew

But you have no reason to make any of those assumptions, and, in fact, he had no wife or children. He seems to have been in close contact with his immediate family, especially his brothers. But all this is amateur psychology, sometimes called, "psychobabble". Explanation is one thing. Finding excuses for the inexcusable is a different thing.

i read the whole article, it was quite long, but mainly nothing but speculations by various people.

from the bare facts alone that i could identify (assuming they are correct for the sake of my own personal speculation) i would say that the actual evidence available about the life of the man portrays someone struggling for years with a deep ethical dilemma which seemed to be unsolvable. he also has the empathy to suffer for the sake of others going through the same thing, finding themselves in a position of being forced to choose between what they have come to believe is ethical and the lives they were leading. knowing how i have struggled with little ethical decisions, i cant imagine a person having to bear one of this magnitude.

the last little piecve of the puzzle, that just before this happened he began going to a strip club next to the base, was for me the concluding piece of evidence that he had already cracked. i dont believe he was a hypocrite, he over a significant period of time appeared to be genuinely concerned with issues of morality and love of god. and going to a strip club is absolutely against all the moral principles in islam. for a person to crack over a moral issue they have to be extremely invested in ethics in the first place. it was more than a case of pressure put on him by outside-he put it on himself because he wanted to do what he thought was right, something he could live with and face himself in the mirror.

that is all i was able to surmise out of the article you linked.

---------- Post added 11-16-2009 at 06:53 AM ----------



what makes you think i am trying to excuse murder? i am a pacifist, i believe all killing is wrong. am i that bad at communication?

sure i am indulging in amateur psychology. and what i am trying to say is that there are a lot of people out there who are tragedies waiting to happen, and point out some of the situations where they can be found. i am also of the opinion that this is a growing discontent and is not being taken seriously. it started with 'going postal' being a joke and has now escalated to a noticeable number of the population. people who are in danger of breaking need to be identified and helped and their potential victims need to be protected.

it is probably too late for this man, he has already hung himself psychologically. at this point what to do with him is another issue, i didnt realize when this thread started that he was still alive. it is your thread, if you want to there.

I'll justify murder if you want... Not for myself; I do not believe my religion justifies killing anyone...Even Jesus did not resist, as if that would have done much good... But Muslims are different... I am what I do, and who I am is what I feel, but I am not A Muslim, and I did not become one on an oath of faith, and it is not a religion I am supposed to struggle for, and I am not enjoined to not kill Muslims...I have real difficulty in accepting Muslims in this country when they must give up so much to fit in...They are foresworn in their loyalities.... If we want them here, then we should take them as they are, spell out our rules plainly, do not toy with them, and do not ask too much of them...In spite of his efforts to alert superiors that he was conflicted, he was still ordered over seas... Sow the wind, and reap a **** storm...

It seems to me that it need not be true that a young man who goes to a strip-club has cracked psychologically. It sounds like a rather normal thing to do. In any case, I do not think it true that the terrorists who devastated Mumbai, and murdered so many people cracked. Do you?

Yes. Hasan lives, and is paralyzed from the waist down. I expect that the death penalty will be sought.

He alerted his superiors to what? And, why should he not have been ordered to go overseas? We do take Muslims as they are. American Muslims are Americans. And when they murder people we treat them just as we treat anyone who murders. What else should we do?

he wasnt a young man. and for a muslim it is neither normal nor ethical behavior, appears to have been something he did only in his last days. islam has a very strong moral code and for him to be pondering the morality of murdering fellow muslims as a patriotic act by the army of which he was a member belonging to the country in which he was a citizen yet suddenly go to a strip club would signify to me that yes, he had cracked open at the seams of his very psyche.

i predict that at his trial he will admit to whatever happened. if he was indeed a terrorist he will say so. if he cracked it will be apparent and he will exhibit extreme remorse. he may in fact ask for the death penalty.

as for other situations such as the mumbai killings, i do not as of now equate them with this nor can i see any similarities whatsoever other than death being the result-i may be proved wrong by the man himself later. for my opinion of whoever was behind the mumbai killings, i do not believe they suffered from any recent sudden breakdown mentally or emotionally but they most assuredly must be insane. they showed a complete lack of reason. there was no motive in what they did, no statement being made and nothing to be gained by anyone out of it.

How do you know that he "suddenly" went to a strip-club? Why do you think that he did not frequently go? Unless I am mistaken, I think that some of the 9/11 hijackers went to strip-clubs while awaiting their little escapade here in the United States.

What makes you think that the Mumbai terrorists were insane? We happen to have cell phone transmissions of their conversations, and there is no indication of insanity on their part. They were, as far as we know, perfectly normal murderers. Their motive was religious and political. Just as was the motives of the 9/11 terrorists. There is no evidence of any mental breakdown.

Of course, had Hasan gone to the Middle East, he would not have engaged in any combat since he was a physician and psychiatrist. So he would have been out of any war zone. Therefore he would not have had to kill anyone. (We usually do not think of war as murder). Therefore he did not have to contemplate any such thing.

but kenneth, i also think that all of the middle east is a warzone. i dont believe any soldier deployed there will not be exposed to the death all around them. do you know all of pakistan is a war zone? life there is so unstable that anyone leaving for school or going to work may not return because of an act of violence. in india as well there are enough terrorist attacks going on by various groups (maoists, naxals, and jihadis) that many areas here are war zones.

---------- Post added 11-16-2009 at 10:38 AM ----------

That is quite beside the point. The point is that he would not have even have been asked to take up arms against other Moslems. Not that I understand his qualms. Moslems have been slaughtering each other in Irag, and in Afganistan (not to mention throughout the mid-east) for years now. The issue was not whether Hasan would be in danger. He did not want to kill other Moslems. But that excuse was obviously bogus.

i dont believe it was bogus. i could be wrong, but i believe he was sincere. the issue for him was not that he would be in danger-you mistake my trying to describe what a warzone means for saying that is what he was afraid of. i believe he did not want to be put in the middle of the conflict and become even more responsible and more exposed to the moral contradictions in his own life and mind. but it is really a bit premature to make guesses, why not wait until he is actually on trial?

the excuse that is made overall for killing other muslims is to say that they are not really muslims because they do not follow the precepts of islam, but that is what is bogus. those murderers claim that because they differ with another muslim's understanding of islam they are defending islam by killing the muslims who they are calling non-believers. a muslim who has become a non-believer is considered to be more despicable than an unbeliever and no excuse can be made for a person who once professes to be a muslim and then changes his mind.

but in islam there is no provision for a muslim to exact retribution on a brother who has defected, as far as i can recall. maybe in reference to historical situations, but there is no generalization about it. we are told to break contact with family members who leave islam, and there are reasons for that. it is difficult for someone with no sense of community to understand. i have been a muslim for two years and feel a deep sense of community with muslims all over the world, and it sickens me to see them slaughtering each other over intolerance and petty meaningless quabbles. they indeed are the ones who are destroying islam from the inside out, and so many of us know that, but do not believe that we should go and slaughter them because we disagree. that is the difference in the reasoning of people who are sane and those who are not.

i am only offering a view into the rationalizing of the people who commit these kind of acts. it doesnt make it right, it doesnt make it less shocking, but until there is an understanding there will be no solution. i do not believe that the fort hood case is like this, but the similarity to me is that both kinds of killers are most definitely not in their right minds. once again, as far as i am concerned that is not an excuse.

He alerted his superiors to what? And, why should he not have been ordered to go overseas? We do take Muslims as they are. American Muslims are Americans. And when they murder people we treat them just as we treat anyone who murders. What else should we do?

Making excuses for themselves (and others) is a cottage industry for people, and in time of stress, they become quite ingenious (and ingenuous) at doing so. And they even learn to become good at believing their own bogus excuses. What kind of killers, according to you, are in their "right minds"?

Making excuses for themselves (and others) is a cottage industry for people, and in time of stress, they become quite ingenious (and ingenuous) at doing so. And they even learn to become good at believing their own bogus excuses. What kind of killers, according to you, are in their "right minds"?

of course, and not only in times of stress do people make excuses for what they do; isnt that rationalization or justification or both? many people go through their whole lives doing that without ever wanting to face the truth of the motives behind their decisions and desires. they are not using the power of reason correctly.

and i thought i made it clear, i believe all killers are not in their right mind.

Society, American society is just a form... If we were to ask Christians or Jews to choose between their religion and our country it would be a mistake...

It is not about defending his actions, but of understanding them...