2
   

Wonder why they don't hate America.

 
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 01:54 am
@kennethamy,
They do not hate America because America for all its flaws and for all the Yankee hubris and American Imperialism stills represents a vision of
god given inaleianable indiviual rights
representative governement with checks and balnaces and of limited scope and powers
and
a society where talent and ability can rise despite humble birth or beginnings.

Although American does not manage to perfectly fullfill these promises it is still an inspiring vision compared to the reality of other societies and other governments.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 02:00 am
@prothero,
prothero;102101 wrote:
They do not hate America because America for all its flaws and for all the Yankee hubris and American Imperialism stills represents a vision of
god given inaleianable indiviual rights
representative governement with checks and balnaces and of limited scope and powers
and
a society where talent and ability can rise despite humble birth or beginnings.

Although American does not manage to perfectly fullfill these promises it is still an inspiring vision compared to the reality of other societies and other governments.


And, for all its faults, American is the greatest force for good among nations. It is also, as the former Secretary of State Madeline Allbright said, "It is the one indispensable nation".
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 07:47 am
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;102059 wrote:
I've imagined non-westerners don't think about the west all that much. The Amercian culture itself resonates with anti-American sentiment. When I was a child my father would sing a famous folk-song about an Irish woman who'd gone with her husband to America and spent the rest of her life longing to go back home. I left home when I was in my 20's and was so homesick I thought I would die. I think we take "home" with us in our hearts. It's lucky to be able to move about and make "home" wherever you are. If your heart is full of the past, the present won't be able to find any room in there.

But as for America, some predict that by the middle of this century, the Chinese economy will be larger and drinkable water will be the main issue of concern in the world. No more grieving over the American empire.. it will be gone.

I don't exactly believe in reincarnation, but I'm still planning to come back Chinese in my next life.

We should hate this place... Nothing is so sour in the face as a dead dream... WE have been had!!!

---------- Post added 11-06-2009 at 09:01 AM ----------

kennethamy;102105 wrote:
And, for all its faults, American is the greatest force for good among nations. It is also, as the former Secretary of State Madeline Allbright said, "It is the one indispensable nation".

What you say reminds me of the man at a funeral who was called upon to say something good of the deceased; and said: His Brother was worse...There is a lot of good... Good sometimes even comes out of politicians seeking good for themselves... When we all seek good oppressive government will end... People will only need that amount of government to get done what needs to get done, and which people cannot do without the aid of government...This government of ours, built out of reality and ideals has given itself to the resusitation of the dead ideal of capital....How many have already died in its defense, and how many hecatombs will lie slaughterd yet on its corpse??? This bearor of all earthly desires is a larvae, an evil spirit of the unburied dead... We should admit it gone and save our remorse...Consider only this: The earth is a closed system, and its resources and environment are limited... Capital is an unbridled beast which can only survive on ever higher levels of profit bled out of the population -and the population of the world... I know they do not understand what is going on, but when capital no longer serves enough to justify the pain it causes it will be done, and it does not matter how high their scaffolds are, how high are their prison wall, how draconian their laws, or how brutal are their cops.... All forms move with the will of the people, and if they cannot all be pointed in the same direction the form goes no where...
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 08:02 am
@salima,
salima;101726 wrote:
i always feel very sad when i hear indian people saying they want to go to america. a lot of them think i am crazy for coming here. i tell them all the things they dont know about their country that are worthwhile to me-but all of them, every one i have talked to so far, has had that gleam in their eye, the lust for gold. very few who go there ever come back, even when they intend to.

but when people have a terrible life in their own country, i can understand them wanting to leave and i dont think they would choose america in particular-they want to go anywhere they think they wont be killed. that is another reason for my believing that the people who answered the survey were motivated by greed.

i dont have any patriotic feelings for any country, i try to see the world without boundaries. as far as i am concerned, the whole world should have an open door policy. so i cant really maintain a practical point of view on the issues behind the poll.
Salima,,,have ya ever wondered what the world would be like without currency?
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 08:09 am
@Elmud,
Elmud;102122 wrote:
Salima,,,have ya ever wondered what the world would be like without currency?

Can you imagine what it would be like without honor???
0 Replies
 
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 08:20 am
@Fido,
On Topic: Despite how the reality plays out, I believe there is still a persistent perception that this country is wealthy and rich. Depending on how you define such a thing, it's quite-justifiably true, even with our faults and flaws.

As far as emigrating; the only place I've given this serious thought to is Canada - though I don't know that I'd ever really do it. I've learned, with some difficulty, that the grass is never as greener on the other side as it often looks

Other thoughts Expressed:[INDENT]When someone else from another country wishes for indoor plumbing, fancy cars and all those yum-yums from McDonald's (read: Gulp-and-blow), I doubt they're thinking about political, social or economic inconsistencies - no matter how true that may be.

For Us Disenchanted: I'm with you, I am ashamed in many ways at what we've become. Even so, one can't deny that there have been times we've been a positive influence (don't ask me for an example - this is a concession). I also don't think we have much justification for begrudging someone for wanting the "boon" they perceive there to be.
[/INDENT]Thanks
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 08:29 am
@Khethil,
Khethil;102128 wrote:
On Topic: Despite how the reality plays out, I believe there is still a persistent perception that this country is wealthy and rich. Depending on how you define such a thing, it's quite-justifiably true, even with our faults and flaws.

As far as emigrating; the only place I've given this serious thought to is Canada - though I don't know that I'd ever really do it. I've learned, with some difficulty, that the grass is never as greener on the other side as it often looks

Other thoughts Expressed:[INDENT]When someone else from another country wishes for indoor plumbing, fancy cars and all those yum-yums from McDonald's (read: Gulp-and-blow), I doubt they're thinking about political, social or economic inconsistencies - no matter how true that may be.

For Us Disenchanted: I'm with you, I am ashamed in many ways at what we've become. Even so, one can't deny that there have been times we've been a positive influence (don't ask me for an example - this is a concession). I also don't think we have much justification for begrudging someone for wanting the "boon" they perceive there to be.
[/INDENT]Thanks


I am surprised. I thought you supported commonsense, and the avoidance of absolutes. No one claimed that the United States was the best conceivable nation. Only that it is (by far) the best there is. If you are ashamed of what we have become, then what did you think we were like before; and what nation is better, given the responsibilities and task this nation has? Canada can afford to be purer. Nothing is expected of her.
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 09:20 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;102131 wrote:
I am surprised. I thought you supported commonsense, and the avoidance of absolutes. No one claimed that the United States was the best conceivable nation. Only that it is (by far) the best there is. If you are ashamed of what we have become, then what did you think we were like before; and what nation is better, given the responsibilities and task this nation has? Canada can afford to be purer. Nothing is expected of her.


I do support common sense, to the extent that it's "common", that it's what I'd term "sense" and correlates to my priorities (as I'd think it'd be the case with you, me or anyone else).

I'm not sure I'd agree that it's the best there is. That'd depend on how someone determines what's best. What countries are "better" isn't an easy question to answer; as I said before, when one isn't happy about something in their abode there's a natural human tendency to see the other side of the fence rosier than it really is.

I've also spent a great deal of time in other countries and don't much subscribe to nationalism - that kind of exposure does wonders for gaining a world view and clearing the clouds of blind loyalty. There are good advantages to living in the U.S.A; but to admit such does not negate our faults or frailties. In the end game, I honestly don't think there is a "best" and "worst" - comparing and contrasting in reality tends to be an equation where one trades advantages and disadvantages of one place for those of another. This isn't something that should be oversimplified.

I am ashamed in some ways, yes. But that hasn't anything to do with "what we were before", it has to do with what I esteem; what I live with, what I want and what I like. Also, let's not go too far off that edge: To say that I am ashamed in some ways is not to say that I see no benefit, no advantage and no worth. It also doesn't mean that I don't have a sense of patriotism or pride. Again, it's not an all-or-nothing proposition

Good reply - thanks
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 09:38 am
@Khethil,
Khethil;102148 wrote:
I do support common sense, to the extent that it's "common", that it's what I'd term "sense" and correlates to my priorities (as I'd think it'd be the case with you, me or anyone else).

I'm not sure I'd agree that it's the best there is. That'd depend on how someone determines what's best. What countries are "better" isn't an easy question to answer; as I said before, when one isn't happy about something in their abode there's a natural human tendency to see the other side of the fence rosier than it really is.

I've also spent a great deal of time in other countries and don't much subscribe to nationalism - that kind of exposure does wonders for gaining a world view and clearing the clouds of blind loyalty. There are good advantages to living in the U.S.A; but to admit such does not negate our faults or frailties. In the end game, I honestly don't think there is a "best" and "worst" - comparing and contrasting in reality tends to be an equation where one trades advantages and disadvantages of one place for those of another. This isn't something that should be oversimplified.

I am ashamed in some ways, yes. But that hasn't anything to do with "what we were before", it has to do with what I esteem; what I live with, what I want and what I like. Also, let's not go too far off that edge: To say that I am ashamed in some ways is not to say that I see no benefit, no advantage and no worth. It also doesn't mean that I don't have a sense of patriotism or pride. Again, it's not an all-or-nothing proposition

Good reply - thanks


I guess you mean that The United States is not perfect, and could (maybe) be better, but it is the best now. If that is not what you mean, then what country do you think is better? (I already pointed out that to say it is Canada would be to compare apples with grapefruit).
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 10:45 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;102153 wrote:
I guess you mean that The United States is not perfect, and could (maybe) be better, but it is the best now. If that is not what you mean, then what country do you think is better? (I already pointed out that to say it is Canada would be to compare apples with grapefruit).


Khethil;102148 wrote:
... In the end game, I honestly don't think there is a "best" and "worst" - comparing and contrasting in reality tends to be an equation where one trades advantages and disadvantages of one place for those of another.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 10:48 am
@Khethil,
Khethil;102173 wrote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Well I think that it is far better to live in America than in North Korea. Don't you? In fact, I think that any rational person would think so.
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 10:53 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;102178 wrote:
Well I think that it is far better to live in America than in North Korea. Don't you? In fact, I think that any rational person would think so.


Excellent question. The short answer is: I don't know for sure, it depends on where I lived, what I did, what I felt was important in my day-to-day life and so on. So I really can't say, I was born and raised in a different culture.

If I'm to believe what news I do hear, then I'd have to say "Yes! Leave me here!" - but I know it's more complicated than that.

How about you?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 11:01 am
@Khethil,
Khethil;102180 wrote:
Excellent question. The short answer is: I don't know for sure, it depends on where I lived, what I did, what I felt was important in my day-to-day life and so on. So I really can't say, I was born and raised in a different culture.

If I'm to believe what news I do hear, then I'd have to say "Yes! Leave me here!" - but I know it's more complicated than that.

How about you?


It is not even an issue. I am (I hope, rational. And even if I were crazy, I hope I would have the good sense not to go to North Korea!) I don't know what considerations would have lead you to leave America for North Korea unless you were offered ownership of the country. And even then, I would have qualms.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 11:13 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;102178 wrote:
Well I think that it is far better to live in America than in North Korea. Don't you? In fact, I think that any rational person would think so.

It is better to live anywhere than not; but as we used to say: Better dead than red... Life is the test of any form... Some times people give up one form for another, and if they were poor before, they are poor after...But the test is if they are living at all beecause threats to life are about the only thing that will cause people to change their forms, but if the result is a life no more secure than before, then the new form has failed...
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 11:31 am
@Fido,
Fido;102188 wrote:
It is better to live anywhere than not; but as we used to say: Better dead than red... Life is the test of any form... Some times people give up one form for another, and if they were poor before, they are poor after...But the test is if they are living at all beecause threats to life are about the only thing that will cause people to change their forms, but if the result is a life no more secure than before, then the new form has failed...


But whether it is better to live anywhere than to be dead is not the question.
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 11:50 am
@kennethamy,
Incredible, after 6 pages, it's been established that we'd rather live in the USA than North Korea! That's saying a lot!

As was said earlier, 'it's like comparing apples to grapefruits', and truly this discussion is just dominated by very strong biases, one way or another.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 12:12 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss;102196 wrote:
Incredible, after 6 pages, it's been established that we'd rather live in the USA than North Korea! That's saying a lot!

As was said earlier, 'it's like comparing apples to grapefruits', and truly this discussion is just dominated by very strong biases, one way or another.


It was claimed that there is no good reason for living in America rather than anywhere else. That is not true. It is better to live in America than North Korea.

But it is better to live in American than any number of other countries. Yemen, China, Russia, Cuba, every country in Africa, and in the Mideast. Albania, Kosovo, etc. etc.
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 01:33 pm
@kennethamy,
Reading through this thread, there are a couple of points I'd like to echo on this issue...

Poseidon;101914 wrote:
Having lived nearly all my life in sub-saharan Africa, I can say that I would not really think anywhere else is worth trying to live in.

But before I travelled elsewhere I did not believe that.


This is important and I'd mentioned this as well. One can't over-state the value and import of being and living in another country - we almost have no real perspective at all, in talking about world views/worldwide issues, until such is done. You can read, expose yourself to different types of media and literature, research, chat with others in another country but until you've lived there - really spent time there experiencing a mindset you've never conceived - it's virtually impossible to have a worldview perspective.

josh0335;101872 wrote:
...As mentioned before, the vast wealth of America coupled with the exposure American culture gets around the world makes the States a very attractive place to live.


Josh's point about the voracity with which U.S. media saturates the planet also can't be over-emphasized. It's everywhere; signs, product packaging, sitcom overdubs, the local news and much more. This inculcates the subtle message "...this is where all good things come from!" and paints an overall picture that may or may not have any correlation to reality in the Land of Oz.

Pangloss;101938 wrote:
The number of bitter, close-minded ethnocentric viewpoints that are on display here in this thread is shocking.


I sense this as well. There's nothing so disappointing as ethnocentricity. It shuts the eyes, elevates one over the other, designates winners and losers that leak our in our speech, our levels of compassion, our votes and general mindset. Some of the most honorable, compassionate and intelligent people I've met were from some of the poorest 3rd world settings. Pangloss is quite right here; we need to ditch our stereotypes and zenophobia.

Good stuff people
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 01:39 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil;102205 wrote:


I sense this as well. There's nothing so disappointing as ethnocentricity. It shuts the eyes, elevates one over the other, designates winners and losers that leak our in our speech, our levels of compassion, our votes and general mindset. Some of the most honorable, compassionate and intelligent people I've met were from some of the poorest 3rd world settings. Pangloss is quite right here; we need to ditch our stereotypes and zenophobia.

Good stuff people


What is ethnocentric about thinking it is much better to live in America (or nearly anywhere else) than in North Korea? It is just a fact.
0 Replies
 
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 01:39 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;102201 wrote:

But it is better to live in American than any number of other countries. Yemen, China, Russia, Cuba, every country in Africa, and in the Mideast. Albania, Kosovo, etc. etc.


Have you been to all of these places? I suspect not. There are plenty of nice places to live in China, Cuba, Africa, and probably the others as well. It's nice that you so easily dismiss 'every country in Africa', as if they are the same, and as if you have personal experience there. Africa is very culturally, geographically, politically, diverse throughout the continent, and varies greatly from country to country...certainly there are some select places there where we could probably all say that America is 'better' by almost any standard, but you can't so easily dismiss the entire continent.

These types of posts just reek of ethnocentric ignorance, and you're going to have to qualify what you mean when you use the comparative 'better' here.
 

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