2
   

Wonder why they don't hate America.

 
 
Catchabula
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 03:22 pm
@kennethamy,
Sure, the method has its shortcomings. It seems to be based on subjective perception But that can be significant in some way. If you ask a hundred people if they are happy, and in one country 70 % says yes and in another 70 % says no, there must hint at something I guess? Is there anything else than subjective happiness?
0 Replies
 
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 03:24 pm
@kennethamy,
The method is laughable, and they surveyed a mere 1000 people from 140 different countries...
0 Replies
 
josh0335
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 03:27 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;101865 wrote:
They believe it is. And, in my opinion, with a lot of justification. No one says they know it. Only that they want to go there more than they do any other country. In other words, they are voting with their feet. They do not seem to hate America. In fact, they seen to like America.


Okay but before you said:

kennethamy;101742 wrote:
You don't think it could possibly be that they think that America is the best country to live in, do you? And that they may be better informed and smarter than you give them credit for?


Which appears to mean that you think these people are making informed decisions. But now you're saying it might not be an informed decision, it's just what they believe.

As mentioned before, the vast wealth of America coupled with the exposure American culture gets around the world makes the States a very attractive place to live.

Another thing to note, people around the world don't hate America in the way you've indicated. They hate American foreign policy.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 04:11 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss;101867 wrote:
Umm, right smack at the top of the article Catchabula posted, where it claims in plain english that Denmark is the world's happiest country. This is what I was responding to. Did you bother to click the link I was responding to before accusing me of a straw-man argument? Obviously not. :rolleyes:


But what has that to do with the issue? Nothing, so far as I can see.
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 04:39 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;101880 wrote:
But what has that to do with the issue? Nothing, so far as I can see.


And what is "the issue"? You posted a news article with no source and no opinion, and we've been posting reactions. Yet your responses amount to nothing more than just objecting to everyone else's reactions. Oh, right, that's typical for your threads, I forgot...I guess the issue is to keep posting our thoughts on the article until they magically intersect with yours, and then we win the game? :sarcastic:
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 05:20 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss;101885 wrote:
And what is "the issue"? You posted a news article with no source and no opinion, and we've been posting reactions. Yet your responses amount to nothing more than just objecting to everyone else's reactions. Oh, right, that's typical for your threads, I forgot...I guess the issue is to keep posting our thoughts on the article until they magically intersect with yours, and then we win the game? :sarcastic:


The article reported a poll that said that more foreigners want to emigrate to the United States than to any other country. And what I said is that it does not seem that these people hate America. For some reason or others, people are trying to explain away the preference of these people by saying: 1. they are stupid, 2. they are greedy, or 3. they have been propagandized. I said nothing about the cause of their preference, But apparently, they don't hate America. Don't you agree? Certainly, that Denmark is a happy country has nothing to do with it. What makes you think it does? A little bit of logic would go a long way.
0 Replies
 
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 05:29 pm
@kennethamy,
And why would they 'hate America', anyway? You posted this article to show evidence that these people don't hate the USA, but who's claiming that they do? No one, so far as I can tell.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 06:35 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss;101895 wrote:
And why would they 'hate America', anyway? You posted this article to show evidence that these people don't hate the USA, but who's claiming that they do? No one, so far as I can tell.


Fine, then. But I do not agree that several people on the board do not think that most people not in the United States hate America. Nor, do I agree that many people on this board do not have a very dim opinion of America. Yet it is true that everybody who responded discovered other causes for why people wanted to come to America than that they thought that American was a good place to go. Why was that? In any case, whether or not Denmark is a happy land had nothing to do with the issue.
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 06:52 pm
@kennethamy,
Imagine a woman from Afghanistan who somehow manages to arrive in America pregnant. She gives birth and the baby is not healthy. The baby, an American citizen, goes straight into an American neonatal intensive care unit, where Medicare will pay for life support, echocardiograms, lab tests, and best of all: pediatric surgeons.

Upon seeing her child for the first time, her sentiment is clear despite the language barrier. She is overjoyed that her daughter is an American.

Yea, it's money.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 07:05 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;101910 wrote:
Imagine a woman from Afghanistan who somehow manages to arrive in America pregnant. She gives birth and the baby is not healthy. The baby, an American citizen, goes straight into an American neonatal intensive care unit, where Medicare will pay for life support, echocardiograms, lab tests, and best of all: pediatric surgeons.

Upon seeing her child for the first time, her sentiment is clear despite the language barrier. She is overjoyed that her daughter is an American.

Yea, it's money.


Why is it money? Would Yeman, or would Denmark provide the benefit? Not if she could not even get in to those countries. And, what makes you think that she could? Why would American provide those benefit if not for American generosity? Those benefits take money. But she could not receive them if not for American generosity. American's don't have to give her those benefits, do they?
Poseidon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 07:13 pm
@kennethamy,
Having lived nearly all my life in sub-saharan Africa, I can say that I would not really think anywhere else is worth trying to live in.

But before I travelled elsewhere I did not believe that.

There are 2 types of people in this world:
1) those who run from problems
2) those who try and solve them

The first type are called immigrants. Do you really want people in your country that are cowards? Large numbers of white south africans left here after the mess they caused during apartheid. Most often its those that cause the problems that run away from them afterwards.

You guys should not trust what you read about South Africa in the press.
Its really 90% illusionary schadenfreude, but then if the press said how wonderful it is here, the place would be inundated with cowards with no backbone for dealing with problems.

So actually, keep telling the world that to live in a country where you cannot even drink the tap water is great. That suits me just fine.

But just think about the physical health and acumen of South African sportsmen.
Is that the result of what the press says?

Hardly.

Its ironic that freedom of the press just results in so much crapaganda.
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 07:39 pm
@Poseidon,
Poseidon;101914 wrote:
There are 2 types of people in this world:
1) those who run from problems
2) those who try and solve them

The first type are called immigrants. Do you really want people in your country that are cowards?
That's an interesting perspective. Perhaps there is a resident of Africa whose ancestry contains no immigrants. The rest of the human race are descendents of nomads.

Running appears to be in our nature. Unless you're Cuchulain.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 08:31 pm
@salima,
salima;101726 wrote:
i always feel very sad when i hear indian people saying they want to go to america. a lot of them think i am crazy for coming here. i tell them all the things they dont know about their country that are worthwhile to me-but all of them, every one i have talked to so far, has had that gleam in their eye, the lust for gold. very few who go there ever come back, even when they intend to.

but when people have a terrible life in their own country, i can understand them wanting to leave and i dont think they would choose america in particular-they want to go anywhere they think they wont be killed. that is another reason for my believing that the people who answered the survey were motivated by greed.

i dont have any patriotic feelings for any country, i try to see the world without boundaries. as far as i am concerned, the whole world should have an open door policy. so i cant really maintain a practical point of view on the issues behind the poll.

I may be wrong on this, and I will say that in advance, but many Indians seem to come to this land with a foo attitude towards us... They take head ache jobs, the kind not many of us want because of the hours and the labor involved, and they make it a family affair as much as possible... If they break all of our labor laws who does it help???They seem to get right into the hotel motel business...From my experience their product is not any better or cheaper than anyone else's, But they are perhaps living heads and shoulders above others in India...I fear that they will bring the faults of their society here, that is, the very problems they seek to escape... Sure, the world would like to escape poverty, but if they are really used to poverty they can bring down our standard of living without raising theirs significantly... If the point is that they can come here and breed themselves out of resources because their culture prizes life, and cannot adapt to a world were life is easier, and childhood death is more uncommon then their problems will follow them...

I talk to strangers of all sorts in this land... When I hear a strange accent I cannot place, I try to ask its origin... I do not prejudge people, but try to offer a welcoming hand because cultural diversity is a virtue for a country to a point...But it is not my good will that protects these sojouners... Around the world where America and England have held sway a system of laws remains...It is just a guess, but the white population of this country though fewer in number is very frustrated with the selling of America and with the seemingly uncontrolled import of others.... What if law is the only thing that is protecting those in this world who are seen as preying upon native populations... The great fear of democracy world wide is that when it has gotten a hold of people they tend to take out their frustrations on foreign peoples in their midst who are seen as united, and cooperative in their exploitation of natives... I have heard this of the Jews, the Chinese, and the Indians...Is law enough to protect anyone when the law is seen as protecting the minority in the exploitation of the majority??? We need to ask the Jewish survivors of the holocaust, though they are every day fewer in number... So often, the rich could escape and they left the poor of their kind to suffer the rath of insane... My answer is that people need to be able to keep the cultures and treasure their cultures, but must be integrated, and made part of the nation...As long as they feel apart they are capable of any crime...

---------- Post added 11-04-2009 at 09:43 PM ----------

Poseidon;101914 wrote:
Having lived nearly all my life in sub-saharan Africa, I can say that I would not really think anywhere else is worth trying to live in.

But before I travelled elsewhere I did not believe that.

There are 2 types of people in this world:
1) those who run from problems
2) those who try and solve them

The first type are called immigrants. Do you really want people in your country that are cowards? Large numbers of white south africans left here after the mess they caused during apartheid. Most often its those that cause the problems that run away from them afterwards.


We must want cowards in this land because we cultivate them... Fear is one of our greatest political motivators, and it us used liberally...The thing is, that under western law the emphasis is on peace...If you are dispossessed of something and take it back by force you give a better title to the original thief, and since that sort of thieving happens under the protection of law, usually peacefully, not with a gun, but with economic leverage, what can anyone do...Even the Muslims who differ from us in having an absolute right to justice have a great encouragement toward peace... People do not want to fight and die so long as there is an option, and they think of immigration as an option...Well the problem is ours too... We should give others justice, and encourage justice, but open our doors to only a few...Our damned Christianity and our priests handing out medicine and food are a part of the problem, and they should be stopped... What good is it to save a man from starving if he must end up killing to have enough in the future??? It is not God's will that people should see themselves destroyed by overpopulation, war, and plague... Those are choices people make by not making good choices....
0 Replies
 
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 09:55 pm
@kennethamy,
The number of bitter, close-minded ethnocentric viewpoints that are on display here in this thread is shocking.

I am disappointed...
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 10:07 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss;101938 wrote:
The number of bitter, close-minded ethnocentric viewpoints that are on display here in this thread is shocking.

I am disappointed...

I hope you are not including me in that number because I study and like other cultures... It is not always good that they bring with them, and the one which stay apart, and use their unity against us are endangering themselves in the long term... There have been places that have gotten democracy and taken it out on the chinese because they were the most united and educated and wealthy people in the country... They work hard, but if their wealth equals the poverty of the masses they should fear the end of law, and the coming of democracy...If you go some where, become them, is always good advice...
There has been a book written on this subject by a well known Chinese American woman called the Fire Next Time... I think....I may have another book by her on the Rape of Nanking...
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 11:37 pm
@kennethamy,
You know about one in 16 people on the planet lives in American. I thank god everyday for the good fortune to have been born in America. For all of our problems there is still more opportunity to rise and get ahead in American on the basis of ability, talent, initiative, innovation and effort than in most other societies and cultures.

In my experience immigrants are some of the more motivated and appreciative of citizens. In may be possible to kill initiative and motivation with enough taxes and regulation but it has not happened yet. The opportunity, the right to rise is what attracts people to America and to other western societies based on representative government, human rights, the rule of law and economic opportunity.

America is not perfect and we can always strive to do better but the ideals of opportunity, independence and self relaiance and of government of limited scope and powers is not completely dead. The american example of respresentaive elected government and of market versus planned economies is one which has been and is spreading throughout the world.
We want the worlds best and brightest and we do not care what nationality, sex, or religion they are.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Nov, 2009 06:28 am
@kennethamy,
I know people come here wanting to do well...If you go to a foreign owned grocery, or party store, of motel and see children working for and with their parents you are seeing part of the key to their success... And yet; we have laws governing child labor, and we cannot get our children to work except by holding twenty dollar bills in front of their noses every ten seconds... After a thousand years of western law our communities are fractured, and the familty is struggling... Give those people a few years here, and their families will be as rotten as ours, but then, they may have respect for the law of the land too...

It would be nice if all those who hate foreigners would realize that we have often dominated and ruined other economies, and we have made a battle field of countries only to have their orphans, maimed, and turcoats follow us home in our defeat...I think the world has enough room for all, but it does not have enough money for the rich and the poor...The world does not have enough democracy..If people were given the facts and the choice they would not eat themselves out of house and home...It is the want of choice combined with the real poverty of the world that makes for extremes of population growth...People have no option but children to combat the insecurity of poverty... And what can anyone do but move when we screw up the environment and suddenly people are living in a desert ten months out of twelve???
0 Replies
 
josh0335
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Nov, 2009 07:22 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;101893 wrote:
The article reported a poll that said that more foreigners want to emigrate to the United States than to any other country. And what I said is that it does not seem that these people hate America. For some reason or others, people are trying to explain away the preference of these people by saying: 1. they are stupid, 2. they are greedy, or 3. they have been propagandized. I said nothing about the cause of their preference, But apparently, they don't hate America. Don't you agree? Certainly, that Denmark is a happy country has nothing to do with it. What makes you think it does? A little bit of logic would go a long way.


There you go again with 'hate America'. You are completely misinformed. People outside America don't hate the American people, or the American culture in general - they hate the way America treats other countries. People are smart enough to differentiate between them. My family come from a third world Muslim country who hate American imperialism, but still want to migrate there. For many people, the benefits of living in the States override any ill feelings they have towards American foreign policies.

kennethamy;101905 wrote:
Fine, then. But I do not agree that several people on the board do not think that most people not in the United States hate America. Nor, do I agree that many people on this board do not have a very dim opinion of America. Yet it is true that everybody who responded discovered other causes for why people wanted to come to America than that they thought that American was a good place to go. Why was that? In any case, whether or not Denmark is a happy land had nothing to do with the issue.


The reason other causes are being presented is because it does not seem possible that these people were making an informed choice. How could they? I know I couldn't say which country in the world I would like to migrate to, and I have access to Internet and all sorts of media. People in poorer countries clearly know of USA more thany any other Western country. And no, they don't hate America so it is not surprising it comes out on top.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Nov, 2009 07:40 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;101979 wrote:
There you go again with 'hate America'. You are completely misinformed. People outside America don't hate the American people, or the American culture in general - they hate the way America treats other countries. People are smart enough to differentiate between them. My family come from a third world Muslim country who hate American imperialism, but still want to migrate there. For many people, the benefits of living in the States override any ill feelings they have towards American foreign policies.



The reason other causes are being presented is because it does not seem possible that these people were making an informed choice. How could they? I know I couldn't say which country in the world I would like to migrate to, and I have access to Internet and all sorts of media. People in poorer countries clearly know of USA more thany any other Western country. And no, they don't hate America so it is not surprising it comes out on top.


Lots of people outside the United States have the Internet, and if they do not, they have other sources of information. I suppose that you do not know which country in the world you want to migrate to is because you have not considered migrating. I am talking about people who want to migrate. They may have friends or relatives in other countries. The world is wired.
0 Replies
 
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Nov, 2009 03:20 pm
@josh0335,
josh0335;101979 wrote:
There you go again with 'hate America'. You are completely misinformed. People outside America don't hate the American people, or the American culture in general - they hate the way America treats other countries.
I've imagined non-westerners don't think about the west all that much. The Amercian culture itself resonates with anti-American sentiment. When I was a child my father would sing a famous folk-song about an Irish woman who'd gone with her husband to America and spent the rest of her life longing to go back home. I left home when I was in my 20's and was so homesick I thought I would die. I think we take "home" with us in our hearts. It's lucky to be able to move about and make "home" wherever you are. If your heart is full of the past, the present won't be able to find any room in there.

But as for America, some predict that by the middle of this century, the Chinese economy will be larger and drinkable water will be the main issue of concern in the world. No more grieving over the American empire.. it will be gone.

I don't exactly believe in reincarnation, but I'm still planning to come back Chinese in my next life.
 

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