61
   

The Confederacy was About Slavery

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2017 02:23 pm
@Foofie,
You and I have, in the past, have had discussions about what I thought was a chip on your shoulder about gentiles.

However, I'm not a Jew (and I suspect Infrablue isn't either) so I acknowledge that my perspective might not be as acute or accurate as yours, and isn't that what so many African-Americans would tell me is so?

It's interesting, at least, when defenders of the oppressed decide that they get to decide who is oppressed.
Foofie
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2017 02:27 pm
@camlok,
camlok wrote:

Quote:
Slavery is a despicable practice in any age but you would have us believe that it is particularly despicable when it involved Africans and Americans.


Who else wrote such high falutin' bullshit about all men being created free but the USA?

Who would have been maligning the Barbary pirates as sub-humans for taking slaves/Americans, when they US was right hot into slavery?

Who else wrote such high falutin' bullshit about all men being created free while it was committing genocide against Native Americans?




O.K., so you have the "moral high ground." But, should anyone use that moral high ground, at this late date, since it can negatively effect the positives in the U.S.. The positives include that few, if any other, countries today allow all manner of diversity to contribute to the country and be compensated commensurately. The world is still tribal and exclusive. The U.S. today is inclusive and diverse. Naturally, human nature being what it is, some do focus on past injustices, since many are emotionally tied to a less than fair history in the U.S.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2017 02:41 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

You and I have, in the past, have had discussions about what I thought was a chip on your shoulder about gentiles.

However, I'm not a Jew (and I suspect Infrablue isn't either) so I acknowledge that my perspective might not be as acute or accurate as yours, and isn't that what so many African-Americans would tell me is so?

It's interesting, at least, when defenders of the oppressed decide that they get to decide who is oppressed.


The people (upscale WASPs) that own the U.S. are oppressed by the liberal, progressives, since this country was originally based on hard work, and keeping the fruits of one's labor. If we didn't have early colonists underwriting (insuring) the hazardous voyage to the New World, as they schmoozed in Fraunces Tavern (Wall St.), no captain of a ship would have chanced a voyage to the New World. When my family came here in the latter 19th century, as part of the mass of non-WASP ethnics, all the heavy lifting was already done (forests cleared, picture postcard New England towns built, many diseases fought through cleaning up the pig sh*t, etc.). I just choose not to be an ingrate. And, from my ethnic perspective, the canard that is often made accusingly at Jews is that "they take over." Well look who is taking over with an attitude of it being their God given right. Such brazen audicity, in my opinion. And, I am only talking about those Americans that did not come here in chains. The African-American experience is a separate story, exacerbated by the clannish ways of many ethnic Americans, that I have experienced.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2017 03:39 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Your response was tangental to this conversation since it was a response to an incidental example that I provided within the context of the conversation at hand.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2017 03:48 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

He's dealing with a very marked persecution complex that seems to pervade his entire being.


It's not a complex. I just understand that only well educated Gentiles, of a certain background, value my presence in this country. Others are just, at best, tolerant of my presence. And, many overtly hostile, since they are afraid, in my opinion, that I won't pander to their ego, they being an average person, of nominal education, or intellect.

Denialism much?
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2017 03:49 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
It's interesting, at least, when defenders of the oppressed decide that they get to decide who is oppressed.

Who gets to decide, the oppressors? Heh.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2017 06:09 pm
@InfraBlue,
Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2017 06:10 pm
@InfraBlue,
History
newmoonnewmoon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2017 06:52 pm
@InfraBlue,
Not all believe in equality
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  8  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2017 07:26 pm
All the oppressed people who have suffered, died, protested, marched, organized, agitated and appealed for justice... Whether they suffered in silence or raised their voices...

I'm sure they all would have loved to know that they needn't have gone to all the effort...
History would have spoken up for them.
Just ask Finn.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2017 07:32 pm
@snood,
You got that right, snood. Nobody is more oppressed than the poor slaveholder.
0 Replies
 
camlok
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2017 07:52 pm
@snood,
Quote:
History would have spoken up for them.
Just ask Finn.


Phuckin' eh, Snood!
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2017 10:17 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

History

Yeah, like, for example, your interpretation of it and your conclusion that, "at its most fundamental basis, the Civil War was about power." Right.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 8 Jun, 2017 09:29 am
@snood,
This is emotion driven sophistry leading to personal insult.

The question was who would define the oppressors?

The answer is clear is that ultimately it's history.

It has nothing to do whatsoever about the legitimacy of the grievance of any group who as felt oppressed. To the extent they raise their voices often and loudly, they are likely to influence history so by all means they should do so.

A good example is the fact that history has pretty much concluded that the Confederacy was all about slavery and Southern slaveholders were oppressors. I don't take issue with the accuracy of this. My comment that at it's core it was about power doesn't in any way excuse the institution of slavery in the South. It was their way of establishing power. While abolition was a driving force behind the North's entry into war so was preservation of the Union and it sometimes amazes me that people who have no problem spying the sinister designs of capitalists in modern American, and indeed global, politics, don't imagine that it could possibly have existed relative to the Civil War.

Another example of clear and undeniable oppression is the Armenian Genocide carried out by Turkey beginning in 1915. While history recognizes the Turks were oppressors of the Armenians, the horrific massacres than led to upwards of 300,000 deaths are not widely known in this country. (Although I understand there is new film coming out that covers this period and so this may change)

In addition, while history notes that the institution of slavery has figured in human civilization for thousands of years, the empires and civilizations of the Chinese, Romans, Persians, Mongols, and the Greeks are not generally defined by the institution and no one is calling for removal of statutes honoring Aristotle who posited a theory of Natural Slavery.

Of course this in no way changes the nature of the Confederacy. It was what it was, but 500 years from now do you think the Civil War and slavery will be such a defining event for America?

The only substantial disagreement I've registered in this thread is with the proposition that every one in the South who wishes to honor their Confederate heritage is a bigot who just would love to see a return to the subjugation of African-Americans.

You can disagree of course, but I've lived in the South for 33 years and I've met many a Southerner who fell to romanticizing the antebellum South, and harbored a family heritage of resentment towards the North for the hardships the region underwent after the war. Some were bigots; most were not. I know you won't believe this but initially when I met someone like this I tried to argue that since the institution of slavery was the foundation of the antebellum South, romantic notions of gentility and such rang hollow. Eventually I gave up the argument because it tended to spoil dinner parties and backyard barbecues and if I didn't believe the people were bigots, I wanted to continue socializing with them.

To the extent these people could be faulted it was for their unwillingness to recognize how deeply African-Americans felt about Confederate symbols. They were selfish in the Southern conceit, but let him who is without sins cast the first stone.

Besides I eventually found that my energies were better directing at arguing with sanctimonious liberals, particularly if they lived in the North.

I grew up in the North and I know it was beset with racism and segregation (more entrenched than when I moved to NC in 1985), and the liberals in my neck of the woods who were full throated supporters of the Civil Rights movement (my parents for example) didn't want to do anything to break the color barrier in place within suburban NY communities for fear of losing property value.

No region of the country has a spotless record that might enable them to denigrate any other. A lot of very good and decent people having been living in the South for a long time and it is just calumny to suggest they've cornered the market on racism.
camlok
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 8 Jun, 2017 09:45 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Another example of clear and undeniable oppression is the Armenian Genocide carried out by Turkey beginning in 1915. While history recognizes the Turks were oppressors of the Armenians, the horrific massacres than led to upwards of 300,000 deaths are not widely known in this country.


Nor are the tens of millions of deaths caused by the oppression and war crimes/genocides of the US, Finn.

The Armenian genocide doesn't come close in numbers to the US sponsored Indonesian genocide or the US sponsored East Timor genocide, or the Cuban genocide or the Nicaragua genocide.

Your grasp of history is badly skewed, but you are not alone.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 8 Jun, 2017 02:03 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

All the oppressed people who have suffered, died, protested, marched, organized, agitated and appealed for justice... Whether they suffered in silence or raised their voices...

I'm sure they all would have loved to know that they needn't have gone to all the effort...
History would have spoken up for them.
Just ask Finn.


Justice comes in different venues. There's legal justice, but today that has expanded to economic justice, educational justice, wealth justice, home ownership justice. Anything anyone feels makes them deprived when compared to those that have, and lack of justice is the new explanation.

How about the justice of having a skill set to earn what one wants. Now if we knew more about DNA and the workings of the epigenome, we may have to concede that some may not qualify for things, unless with justice comes a human right.
0 Replies
 
perennialloner
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jun, 2017 03:37 pm
Quote:
In the meantime, under the mild and genial climate of the Southern States and the increasing care and attention for the wellbeing and comfort of the laboring class, dictated alike by interest and humanity, the African slaves had augmented in number from about 600,000, at the date of the adoption of the constitutional compact, to upward of 4,000,000. In moral and social condition they had been elevated from brutal savages into docile, intelligent, and civilized agricultural laborers, and supplied not only with bodily comforts but with careful religious instruction. Under the supervision of a superior race their labor had been so directed as not only to allow a gradual and marked amelioration of their own condition, but to convert hundreds of thousands of square miles of the wilderness into cultivated lands covered with a prosperous people; towns and cities had sprung into existence, and had rapidly increased in wealth and population under the social system of the South; the white population of the Southern slaveholding States had augmented from about 1,250,000 at the date of the adoption of the Constitution to more than 8,500,000 in 1860; and the productions of the South in cotton, rice, sugar, and tobacco, for the full development and continuance of which the labor of African slaves was and is indispensable , had swollen to an amount which formed nearly three-fourths of the exports of the whole United States and had become absolutely necessary to the wants of civilized man. With interests [the right to keep slaves] of such overwhelming magnitude imperiled, the people of the Southern States were driven by the conduct of the North to the adoption of some course of action to avert the danger with which they were openly menaced.


http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_m042961.asp

Confederate States of America - Jefferson Davis's Message to Congress April 29, 1861 (Ratification of the Constitution)
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Jun, 2017 04:23 pm
@perennialloner,
Jeff Davis, convicted out of his own Confederate mouth. It WAS SLAVERY, sTUPID, THAT CAUSED THE cIVIL wAR.
camlok
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 8 Jun, 2017 04:31 pm
@MontereyJack,
There have been myths used to describe all of the US's myriads "wars", Jack. Americans are myth makers, the biggest myth makers the world has ever known.

One thing that isn't a myth are the carpetbaggers, aka US business, who follow the US military around like puppy dogs, stealing all after the death and destruction.
0 Replies
 
perennialloner
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jun, 2017 07:59 pm
@MontereyJack,
I'm not sure if you're calling me(?) stupid. If so, my reason for posting that address was to show exactly what you stated.

To the guy who said the Confederacy was about power. Sure, but where did the Confederate States power come from, as they saw it? Slaves. Southerners relied on slaves. The Southern economy prospered because of African labor. You know this. So, if the power the Confederacy sought came from these slaves, how was it not about slavery?

Of course, the majority of Southerners were loyal to a cause, but that cause positioned the right to African labor at the very core. Even the smallest of the farmers in the South wanted Africans to be enslaved, and just as passionately. They found comfort in a hierarchy wherein they weren't at the very bottom.
 

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