61
   

The Confederacy was About Slavery

 
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2015 04:03 pm
@hawkeye10,
see above post (I shall not repeat its fact), I hope there werent too many difficult concepts for you
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  2  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2015 12:49 pm
Quote:


Q. What caused the Civil War?

While many still debate the ultimate causes of the Civil War, Pulitzer Prize-winning author James McPherson writes that, "The Civil War started because of uncompromising differences between the free and slave states over the power of the national government to prohibit slavery in the territories that had not yet become states. When Abraham Lincoln won election in 1860 as the first Republican president on a platform pledging to keep slavery out of the territories, seven slave states in the deep South seceded and formed a new nation, the Confederate States of America. The incoming Lincoln administration and most of the Northern people refused to recognize the legitimacy of secession. They feared that it would discredit democracy and create a fatal precedent that would eventually fragment the no-longer United States into several small, squabbling countries."
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2015 03:38 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix's quote wrote:
While many still debate the ultimate causes of the Civil War, Pulitzer Prize-winning author James McPherson writes that, "The Civil War started because of uncompromising differences between the free and slave states over the power of the national government to prohibit slavery in the territories that had not yet become states. When Abraham Lincoln won election in 1860 as the first Republican president on a platform pledging to keep slavery out of the territories, seven slave states in the deep South seceded and formed a new nation, the Confederate States of America. The incoming Lincoln administration and most of the Northern people refused to recognize the legitimacy of secession. They feared that it would discredit democracy and create a fatal precedent that would eventually fragment the no-longer United States into several small, squabbling countries." (emphasis added)


McPherson may have won a Pulitzer, but he is apparently ignorant of the text of the United Sates constitution. The tenth section of Article I of the constitution reads, in its entirety:

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.
(emphases added)

As i have pointed out many, many times, no proposed amendment ending slavery could have passed both houses of Congress by a two thirds majority until Oklahoma entered the union in 1907. To this day, the fifteen states in which slavery was legal would be sufficient to prevent the ratification of such an amendment. In fact, any thirteen of that number could prevent ratification, to this day. Among the stupidities and enormities committed by an elite faction in the southern states, secession was the first, and arguably the most serious of them. With the southern delegations departed from Congress, there was nothing they could legally do to prevent the amendment of the constitution.

In the first week of January, 1861, two months before Lincoln took office, so-called state troops all over the South seized United States military installations, chiefly arsenals, and removed, without authority, the arms and ammunition stored in them. On January 8th, an armed mob from Pensacola--excuse me, "state troops" of Alabama and Florida--attempted to seize forts Barrancas and McRee. The U.S. Army Artillery officer in command ordered his men to fire over the heads of the mob--excuse me, the "state troops"--who scurried back to Pensacola as fast as their fat little legs would carry them.

On January 9, 1861, almost two months before Lincoln took office, cadets from the Citadel, a private military academy supported by the state of South Carolina, fired on Star of the West, an unarmed civilian transport, as she attempted to deliver reinforcements and supplies to Fort Sumter. "Southern heritage" loonies here have, over the years, attempted to claim that a bunch of teen aged hot heads were justified in firing on the ship just because they were attempting to reinforce and resupply Major Anderson's command. Since when has any President of the United States needed the permission of any state government to reinforce and resupply United States military installations?

I am bemused at Mr. McPherson's claim. As i've also pointed out time and again, the southern states started a war which they could not win, they got their asses kicked, and they've been whining about it ever since. Regardless of what Mr. McPherson has to say, Buchanan and Lincoln had ample constitutional justification for responding to the war-like acts of southern states as they did. Mr. McPherson may have won a Pulitzer prize, but it appears to me that he is as deluded as the most deluded of the lost cause myth devotees. It appears that Mr. McPherson's knowledge of the constitution is less than comprehensive, and his math sucks, too. It also appears that he only partially knows the history of the civil war, or is willing to play fast and loose with historical truth in order to make himself out to be some kind of oracle.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2015 08:38 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

Quote:


Q. What caused the Civil War?

While many still debate the ultimate causes of the Civil War, Pulitzer Prize-winning author James McPherson writes that, "The Civil War started because of uncompromising differences between the free and slave states over the power of the national government to prohibit slavery in the territories that had not yet become states.


That's an odd thing for McPherson to say, considering that the issue of slavery in the territories had been decided by the supreme court in the Dred Scott decision, rendered in 1857. As such, southerners in 1860 did not really need to fear that a Lincoln administration would outlaw slavery in the territories. Indeed, northerners had more reason to fear that the supreme court would extend slavery to the free states.

Instead, southerners feared that a Republican administration would somehow restrict slavery in the south, not just outlaw it in the territories. It was an irrational fear, to be sure, but who ever said that the secessionists were acting rationally?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2015 08:49 pm
@Setanta,
But, he did win a Pulitzer. Cool

There was an addendum in the post if you followed the link.

Quote:
The Coming of the American Civil War

The roots of the American Civil War predate the creation of the United States, with sectional rifts only deepening in the years following the Revolution. Although there were a variety of regional differences, ranging from the economic to the moral, the most visible and virulent was the debate over slavery. Between 1780 and 1804, each northern state outlawed the practice, while it continued to flourish to the south. Abolitionists, who sought to ban 'the peculiar institution' throughout the country, sharpened the debate in the 1830s, while a series of events kept the slavery question at the forefront of the national consciousness. Tensions heightened in 1831 in the wake of Nat Turner's violent slave rebellion, then again in 1854 when passage of the Kansas-Nebraska Act, which allowed those territories to decide the issue, sparked bloody conflict. In 1857, in the case Dred Scott v. Sanford, the Supreme Court ruled, among other things, that Congress had no authority to ban slavery in federal territories, prompting an economic panic. The United States was experiencing unprecedented growth, progress and prosperity, but the political landscape was a minefield of trouble and turmoil.


Now, I don't claim to be author or in any way associated with this post. Please take it up with civilwar.org if the history is off.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2015 02:43 am
@McGentrix,
When one considers the career of old Joe Pulitzer, yellow journalist par excellence, the proposition that that lends any authority to McPherson's skewed view point is rather dubious. Leaving aside McPherson and his omissions and seeming ignorance, i wonder if you are aware that your venture into historical synthesis does nothing to dispute Snood's valid claim that the Confederacy was about slavery. Thanks for the heads up, though--now i know that McPherson is just another apologist for the Confederacy. There's no reason for me to take up McPherson's distortions with Civil War-dot-org, as they didn't post this here.
McGentrix
 
  0  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2015 06:18 am
@Setanta,
I am not trying to dispute it. I am trying to show how many historians agree that the Confederacy was about slavery.
Did I come across as trying to dispute it?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2015 03:32 pm
@McGentrix,
No, not necessarily. However, i was disgusted to see McPherson peddling an old canard which indirectly suggests that Lincoln was responsible for the war.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2015 04:58 pm
Long before Lincoln even appeared on the political horizon, the issue of slave state and free state erupted in murderous strife in what became known as Bleeding Kansas (clickity-click). The issue was so inflammatory that the day after Massachusetts Republican Senator Chareles Sumner took the floor to denounce what he characterized as the attempt to take over the government by southern slave owners, personally vilifying Senator Butler from South Carolina, Butler's cousin, Representative Brooks attacked Sumner on the floor of the Senate and almost beat him to death. The Ohio abolitionist John Brown lead a raid which resulted in about a half a dozen men being hacked to death on the Kansas-Missouri border. Brown lead a failed attempt to instigate a slave rebellion in Virginia in 1859, when Robert Lee lead a detachment of Marines who rounded up the insurrectionists. Brown was tried and hung. Brown became a polarizing figure who inspired many abolitionists, and who probably drove the South closer to war, and inspired preparations in the South. John B. Floyd of Virginia, Buchanan's Secretary of War, shipped, in 1859 and -60, 115,000 stand of muskets and rifled muskets to southern arsenals where they were rapidly snapped up by so-called "state troops," in most cases before those states had passed secession ordinances.

McPherson has given a superficial and misleading analysis. The hotheads inf the South started the war, and Lincoln inherited it. Soon after Virginia seceded from the Union, the western counties seceded from Virginia (and became, in 1863, the state of West Virginia). Bands of deserters from the Confederate States armies, chiefly the Army of Norther Virginia, became so large and threatening in southwest Virginia, that Lee was eventually obliged to send a division of his army there to put down the insurrection. In the hill country of North and South Carolina, and the mountains, deserters just faded away into the woods, and most were never seen again. The eastern portion of Tennessee was largely anti-secession, and their men, along with anti-secession sympathizers from elsewhere in the state and from the Carolinas, set up their own independent state centered on Knoxville, which the Confederates unsuccessfully attacked on several occasions. Even James Longstreet from Lee's army had his crack at Knoxville--and failed to take the city. The political leader of the Unionists in Tennessee was Andrew Johnson, who became Lincoln's second vice president, and who succeeded him in office.

I object to McPherson's glib and over-simplified narrative which ignores some vary salient points and creates a completely false impression of the causes and the start of the war, and of Mr. Linocln's part in all of it.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2015 09:41 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

I am not trying to dispute it. I am trying to show how many historians agree that the Confederacy was about slavery.
Did I come across as trying to dispute it?


yes, thats what it looks like to me.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2017 06:57 am
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18620428_1852141698442388_2792375587557245838_n.jpg?oh=a486bd86763190e31f74257622ee32de&oe=59BB8170
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2017 07:31 am
@snood,
Conservatives: "Only winners deserve trophies!"

Also conservatives: "How dare you take down our monuments to failure!"
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2017 12:33 pm
mark
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2017 09:44 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

I am not trying to dispute it. I am trying to show how many historians agree that the Confederacy was about slavery.
Did I come across as trying to dispute it?


Only if one reads the following statements as somehow suggesting that the Confederacy was not about slavery

Quote:
...because of uncompromising differences between the free and slave states over the power of the national government to prohibit slavery in the territories that had not yet become states.


Quote:
Although there were a variety of regional differences, ranging from the economic to the moral, the most visible and virulent was the debate over slavery.


farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2017 04:27 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
In case anyone has missed Mitch landrieu's speech when they removed the Confederacy leader statues in Nawlins (My spiritual Home town)



Remember these statues were erected during the Reconstruction period, not during the Confederacy.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2017 10:07 am
@farmerman,
Not sure why you directed this towards me.

I've no problem with removing Confederacy monuments and particularly so when they have plaques inscribed with clearly racist sentiment (as at least one I saw does)

I don't, though, uniformly ascribe racism as the reason for everyone who has opposed the removal of the monument. I get that some people see them as monuments of a fanciful and romantic image of their heritage, but they, in my opinion, have not given the matter enough consideration.

There is no reason what-so-ever for African-Americans to view the Confederacy and the slavery based society of the antebellum South through rose colored glassed and while I think Landrieu gilded the lilly with talk about these monuments limiting the potential of young African-American children, African-American citizens have as much right to public spaces of their community as the white ancestors of Confederate soldiers. Even the most romantic notion of a proud and brave Confederate army doesn't somehow cancel out the very legitimate offense taken by African-Americans whose ancestors' enslavement the Confederate army fought to preserve. The monuments are clearly not simply symbols of reverence for personal bravery in an unjust war, and the purpose of that war can't be disassociated from any of the actions of those who led the Confederate army or the Confederate government.

To the extent that any of these monuments were erected to remind freed slaves of just where they stood in their communities should make them all the more offensive to Americans of any skin color.

Regardless of what some white Southerners may feel about the conduct of their ancestors monuments to an unjust institution and men who fought and killed to preserve it don't belong in public places.
farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2017 11:21 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
sometims we just hit the enter button for the guy above. Thats all. If you carefully consider the statues, think about when they were installed. It really had nothing to do with " Romance and Heritage". It was during Reconstruction when, in the deep south, the hangers- on of the Confederacy were still trying to assert "Jim Crow" "lynching" and often to reassert slave holding which was included as a conditional wording on the documents of secession most ALL of the seceding states. Thats when these statues were commissioned and installed.

Landrieu, as he stated clearly, was reminded about what these statues

stood for (during the 1880's) in Nawlins. He wanted that town to wrest the leftover racist policies and beliefs from what the town now stood for FOR EVERYBODY. I think he did a damned good job speechifyin. Compare his words to those of our president .

He got some pushback from some organizations, most of which include the word "Aryan" or include the letter "K" in their logos.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2017 03:00 pm
@farmerman,
The original intent of the statues doesn't preclude people today from perceiving them as monuments to a romantic bygone era.

I'm sure some of their defenders are precisely the sort of people you've described, but as much as it may frustrate, disappoint or horrify others I'm simply not going to tar them all with the racist brush.

People often embrace ignorance and believe what they want to believe without necessarily being malignant at heart.

All American communists who refused to accept the sins of Stalin once revealed by the Party under Khrushchev were godless, blood thirsty fanatics.

farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2017 03:33 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
The original intent of the statues doesn't preclude people today from perceiving them as monuments to a romantic bygone era.
Perhaps, but that would merely display their ignorance of the history of the "Reconstruction". Ignorant or wantonly racist, choose one.
camlok
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2017 03:36 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
All American communists who refused to accept the sins of Stalin once revealed by the Party under Khrushchev were godless, blood thirsty fanatics.


All Americans who refuse to accept the sins of the USA , long revealed by myriad sources are godless, blood thirsty fanatics, war mongers, deeply evil individuals.
 

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