The Confederacy was About Slavery

I'm not a participant in either type of thread (evolution or religion) but this one here involves demonstrable facts. Religion doesn't - by definition.

Yeah, but you and some others are demonstrating the same sort of fanaticism here that pervades the religious positions on those threads.

Well it appears that Anus is more and more coming to my points and Ill declare his recent stands as "reasonable" by way of circuitry. As he had originally ignored the way things actually occured in our delaings with Indians and That S C was NOT justifed in its opening shots of the War. Ill accept that hes mod' his views significantly .


My work is done here.and maybe spendius can come over and **** all over this thread too.

As long as expansion was being organized into lsavery and non slavery states. YOU CANT ESCAPE the central isue of slavery because ALL things re: expansion wouldnt have resulted in bloody riots and border skirmishes and , when the abolitionist Lincoln was sworn in, WAR.

All I've demonstrated is a search for provable facts and precise definition of terms. The fanatics are those who care about neither.

Well, duh, that's what "manifest destiny" means - "terra nullius" is legalese for the same thing. There are 2 interesting points from this discussion: (1) Farmerman attempting to pull a fast Humpty-Dumpty by making the absurd claim that "not full citizen" is identical to "not human", and (2), and that's a subtler point, by attempting to link slavery to the Indian tribes. If never a single slave had ever been imported into the Americas, would the Indians have been treated any better than they were? It's impossible to prove a counterfactual hypothesis but I doubt any historian would bet on that one.

P.S. legal note, North America was never officially "terra nullius" - lands were purchased from the Indian tribes by all European settlers:

I don't think FM was trying to pull a fast one, he just used an unfortunate term. I think what he meant to say was that colonial powers considered indigenous races "uncivilized". Especially in Australia where the natives did not cultivate crops. To the English this was uncivilized and it prompted them to seize land under the banner of Terra Nullius(land without civilization).

In North America though, the natives did cultivate and furthermore were a force to be reckoned with. In fact William Pitt suggested that their land should be bought not fought for; the price of conquest was just too high.
Eventually Manifest Destiny replaced Terra Nullius as a war cry in appropriating territory from "uncivilized" peoples.

Originally Ionus brought the native tribe subject in to prove the hypocrisy of the North in it's dealings with the South.
I don't see see any proof that this isn't a case of apples and oranges.
He also intimated that the Civil War was about power
not slavery(I think).
Well yeah, the question of the perpetuation and spread of slave holding territory was about power. But I don't see any evidence to disprove Snood's contention that the Civil War (Confederacy)was about the struggle to control slavery.

In any case, this has been a satisfying thread and I commend Ionus on his interest in American history even if I disagree with his opinions.
High Seas, I disagree with your contention that the Confederate battle flag is not about prejudice and bigotry. I can honestly say that I have never met a person sporting the flag or decal or tattoo who didn't secretly abhor niggers wops towel heads gooks and wet backs.

Who knows? You might be the first.

If all those people flying the rebel flag were all that secretive about whatever opinions they held, how did you manage that feat of divination? The only secretive character posting here so far is the clown zeroing assorted posts; I'm not going to speculate on his motives other than to observe that if he had an argument he would lay it out. As to Stephens, Davis's VP, he wrote at length on the legality of secession, and whatever his personal opinion on any of the relative importance of any clauses might have been was and remained personal to him. The key to secession was by definition States' rights.

Indirect proof of this may be obtained by seeing that States' rights are a vitally important element in current legislation - from health care to global warming to firearms - while slavery hasn't exactly been a hot topic of late. As I've come across many people flying the Stars and Bars (all across the South and in NRA conventions) and never heard a single one of them utter a word against any ot the groups you mention, I can't agree with your mind-reading interpretation and intend to continue with my plan to buy the rebel flag and display it alongside the Stars and Stripes on national holidays. Hell, the Utah legislature feels so strongly about States' rights, NOW, that there have been mutterings about secession in their chamber

http://www.standard.net/topics/opinion/2010/02/20/our-view-secession-anyone

LOL - I take it the little post-zeroing troll is disappointed I'm leaving this thread without posting the rebel flag, so here's 2 of them. Bye

I enjoyed your posts and reiterate: It was solely my opinion, not a fact(the stars and bars/bigot thing)so you don't have to try and disprove it.

I'm completely unsurprised that the person who introduced racial slurs and the person spamming the thread with confederate flag images are one and the same.

be careful...

if you piss her off, she will go zero a whole page of one of your threads.

Duh. Oh, I see.

So she's childish as well as crazy? I already knew that.

My discussions of how Indians were regarded had nothing to do with citizenship. Since the Indians were regrded as sub human svages (Officially until Judge Dundy"S actual court decision which, by recognizing the actuality humanity of Standing Bear freed him, and brought the Indian under the protection of statutes of law)
You may wish to not believe, but that doesnt make it not so.

I NEVER brought up the issue of slaves v Indians, Ionus did.

However , this thread has lost its interest and focus. Now we seem to be defending phrases .

Perhaps my term was unfortunate , however savage uncivilized and "Not humna" were actual terms used to decribe the tribes. Several "treaties" were entered into with the support documentation with the express purpose of disposession by the "savages" of tribal lands by purchase . Purchase was usually accomplished in trade goods that was made with a deal that was quite one sided. "uncivilized " was a complimentary term compared to others actually used.
Im not a fan of Vine Deloria but several of his books were basics ource documents of the recorded dealings with Indian tribes , all the way from the massacres of the Conestoga by the PAxton "Boys" , through Rec Cloud and into the days of John Collier and CArlos Montezuma. DE Loria my have been a kind of nut (Custer Died For your Sins) , but he had a wealth of original data sources of our treatment of Indians.

Parallel the Indians plight with the Black Man. I could say that the black man was considered an inferior "race" until my lifetime (at leats), Even today the Aryans and The KKK are organized in the belief that the Black man repesents a race "less capable and civilized" than the white man. No mAtter what genetics and world history shows, the Skinhead contingent. Unfurling their CSA battle flag is done just to represent divisory politics and racial superiority .

PS , manifest destiny has a primary life that was over by the time the Civil war began. The treatment of Indians was purely the hegemony of racism. "only good Indian is a...", The second life of MAnifest Destiny was around the McKinley administartion and lasted until just before WWI.

High Seas is certainly free to fly whatever flag he wishes. Several NASCAR lovers fly battle flags over their number 3's on one pole. I am also free to believe that its a purposely racist activity i which the Flag flyer is merely trying to rub my nose in his overt racist beliefs.

Ats Just my feeling, and I havent heard any remarks that have changed my mind. In fact , the more sneering the reason, the more certain I am. There are one bazillion medallions of southern heritage that we celebrate together as a nation. The rebel battle flag aint one of em.

My favorite is the unofficial motto of my adopted city of NAwlins
Laissez bon Temp roullaixe.

or the symbol of Newcomb college and Tulane U.

Live oaks with moss

Gators and wildcats

Brown mountain

The Alamo

The Smokies.

Shovin a racist symbol under my nose merely pisses me off at how insensitive people can be.

I feel ya.

hyper sensitivity is a bigger problem these days.

I wouldnt have called FM a fanatic...more a misguided fool.