Israel Kills 10 in Palestinian Aid Convoy

@McTag,

Hamas is a group of violent fantatics, whose only "idead" is the destruction of Israel and the maintenance of their own power during the process.

Quote:

Hamas officials on Wednesday refused to allow into the Gaza Strip 21 truckloads of humanitarian aid that had been offloaded from the Gaza-bound flotilla ships currently docked at Ashdod Port, until “all” of those detained in Monday’s naval raid were released.

http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=177320

But their people in Gaza are in desperate need of these supplies... Rolling Eyes

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

But their people in Gaza are in desperate need of these supplies...

Any proof that only "Hamas people" are in desperate need of these supplies?

Our local church parishes are in contact with their twinned parishes in Gaza: they desperately need(ed) these supplies as well.

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@McTag,

Quote:

Amos Oz wrote an interesting piece, published yesterday.

"Hamas is not just a terror organisation. Hamas is an idea. A desperate and fanatical idea that grew out of the desolation and frustration of many Palestinians. No idea has ever been defeated by force " not by siege, not by bombardment, not by being flattened with tank treads, and not by marine commandos. To defeat an idea you have to offer a better idea, a more attractive and acceptable one. The only way for Israel to edge out Hamas is for it to quickly reach an agreement with the Palestinians on the establishment of an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip as defined by the 1967 borders, with its capital in East Jerusalem."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/02/israel-force-impotent-hamas-idea

Sounds right to me.

The two state solution would be all well and good if the Palestinians were to agree to those terms, but what most backers of this solution ignore is the Palestinians' Right of Return as confirmed by the UN's Resolution 194. The two state solution rejects the Palestinians' Right of Return. Of course the state of Israel is steadfastly against that right because it goes against the very raison d’être of that state, an ethnocentric state which, to preserve a satisfactory level of ethnic purity, must necessarily oppress, and discriminate against, the peoples of Palestine. By backing the two state solution, these supporters of the so called two state solutions implicitly support the state of Israel's repression of the Palestinians.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter - By "their people," I mean the entire populace of Gaza which Hamas is supposed to legally represent.

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@InfraBlue,

Palestinian insistence on the so-called Right of Return is a blatant attempt to accomplish through time and fecundity, what they have been unable to accomplish through terrorism: the eliminate of the Jewish state of Israel.

If there is a people on earth who deserve their own small patch of dirt, it is the Jews.

If the argument can be made that the Palestinians are in second place (Something the Kurds, among others might reject), there is an answer to their plight: the Two State Solution.

When it comes to Israel the UN deck is utterly stacked against her, and so any resolution passed by that feckless body on the issue has zero legitimacy.

Israel will never agree to the Right of Return; nor should she.

3 Replies

Blockading another country even in international waters is a well accepted practice and includes the "exclusion" zone set around the Falklands. The blockade is to prevent military supplies. Many ships are stopped and searched and allowed to go on their way. Several were searched before in that same day in the same way.

Economic sanctions is the preferred weapon of choice for the USA and in Iraq was causing great hardship to ordinary citizens. Where was your indignation then ? In this case the supplies were delivered to the Palestinians.

The violence was escalated by the Palestinian sympathisers and I have no problem with anyone attacking an armed soldier with a steel bar or a knife getting shot dead.

Ships were smuggling in rockets to attack civilians in Israel. Where was all the indignant leftist whinging then ?

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

If the argument can be made that the Palestinians are in second place (Something the Kurds, among others might reject), there is an answer to their plight: the Two State Solution.

Animals can't have a state.

In fact, that's the reason that languages which still have real grammar often if not usually distinguish between animal calls and human language e.g. why in Russian you'd speak "по Англиский" (in English) or "по Русский" (in Russian), nominative grammar case but for instance, for rat imitations, "по крисинОМУ" (dative case), i.e. precisely because rats don't have any sort of a state or political organization which would indicate the use of nominative case.

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For those who have problems with authority and want to side with the poor Palestinians, I would like you to remember a terrorist attack where the Israeli army was closing on some Palestinians terrorists. Worried their children hostages were slowing them down, they picked up the little kids by the ankles and swung them over their shoulders and smashed their heads on rocks. They then escaped to fight another day. Yes, Palestine has a proud history worthy of your support.

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@Ionus,

If the subject ever comes up...

There actually is a difference between barbarians and savages. For instance, hell would have had to freeze over five or six times before Attila or Chengis Khan ever would have tolerated Hun or Mongol women and kids being used as human shields. My GUESS is that the palisavages are two or three centuries away from working their way up to anything you could call barbarism.

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More evidence of the perfidy of Turkey

Quote:

The Turkish accounting should begin with a full explanation from the government of its relationship with the IHH, an Istanbul-based Islamic "charity" that purchased three of the six boats used in the flotilla from the city government, sent hundreds of its activists along with it, and reportedly has ties to Turkey's ruling Islamist AKP Party.

The IHH"the Turkish acronym for the "Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief""has widely reported links to Hamas, the terrorist group that runs Gaza and most directly threatens Israel. Moreover, in the 2001 Seattle trial of Ahmed Ressam, the would-be Millennium bomber, French counterterrorism magistrate Jean-Louis Bruguiere testified that the IHH had played an "important role" in Ressam's plot to bomb LAX airport on New Year's Day, 2000, and that there was "a rather close relation" between the bomber and the Turkish group.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703561604575282423181610814.html?mod=djemEditorialPage_h

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Satire from Israel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Morally, no state has the right to oppress peoples. The state of Israel is necessarily predicated on the oppression of the Palestinian people. The state of Israel, therefore, must be eliminated.

One thing is the assertion that "If there is a people on earth who deserve their own small patch of dirt, it is the Jews," another thing entirely is whether "the Jews" have a right to oppress a people in that small patch of dirt. You argument is a non sequitur.

The UN's resolutions have zero legitimacy on the issue of Israel, except those that Israel cites as pretexts for its existence, of course. Your argument itself is feckless.

Israel will never agree to the Right of Return, therefore the state of Israel must be eliminated.

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@InfraBlue,

Quote:

Israel will never agree to the Right of Return, therefore the state of Israel must be eliminated.

Thats a joke, right???
You are saying that any country that wont allow people whose ancestry is from there to return and claim their ancestral lands should therefore be eliminated.

My moms side of the family is originally from Sweden.
My grandmother emigrated to the US, along with her parents, in 1922.
Should I be allowed to go to Sweden and demand that my grandmothers family home and property be returned to me?

If you really think that Israel should just roll over and give in to the Palestinians, many of whom were not born in Israel and have no claim to anything in Israel, then you need to learn a little more.

If anything, Israel should conduct a scorched earth policy.
If they decide to give in to the Palestinians, then Israel should destroy every building, every hospital, every road, every factory, every water treatment plant, every gas station, every farm, and everything else that was built by Israeli's.
They should return to the Palestinians land that has absolutely nothing on it, land that is totally barren and let the Palestinians improve it themselves, if they can.

As for the "aid" convoy approaching Israel, they have every right to stop, board, and inspect ANY vessel that is entering their territorial waters, irregardless of where that vessel is flagged.
The US Coast Guard does it all the time with vessels entering or approaching US waters.
And Coast Guard boarding parties are also armed, so that they can defend themselves if needed.
Are you actually saying that Israel does not have that same right?

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@mysteryman,

Quote:

Thats a joke, right???
You are saying that any country that wont allow people whose ancestry is from there to return and claim their ancestral lands should therefore be eliminated.

I am saying that the state of Israel is an ethnocentric state which, to exist by its own terms--as a "Jewish" state, necessarily must oppress the peoples of Palestine.

Israel selectively "allows people whose ancestry is from there to return and claim their ancestral lands" through its Law of Return. Some of these people that Israel has "allowed to return and claim their ancestral lands" have as their "ancestry" one grandparent that confessed Jewish religion or ethnicity. The majority of Palestinians claim ancestry in Palestine dating to Hebrew times, directly to the Hebrews. The state of Israel doesn't even consider that fact in its rejection of their Right of Return because the Palestinians that it is oppressing are not "Jews."

Quote:

My moms side of the family is originally from Sweden.
My grandmother emigrated to the US, along with her parents, in 1922.
Should I be allowed to go to Sweden and demand that my grandmothers family home and property be returned to me?

If home and property were arrogated from your grandmother, you should be allowed recourse to redress the injustice.

From your convoluted arguments, I can't tell whether subscribe to the idea of the right of return or not.

Quote:

If you really think that Israel should just roll over and give in to the Palestinians, many of whom were not born in Israel and have no claim to anything in Israel, then you need to learn a little more.

Most Palestinians claiming the Right of Return have ancestry in Israel dating to Hebrew times, as I've already pointed out. These Palestinians were, or are descendants of people who were, displaced after the 1948 war. UN resolution 194 grants them the Right of Return.

Tell me, what more do I need to learn? I'm all ears.

Quote:

If anything, Israel should conduct a scorched earth policy.
If they decide to give in to the Palestinians, then Israel should destroy every building, every hospital, every road, every factory, every water treatment plant, every gas station, every farm, and everything else that was built by Israeli's.
They should return to the Palestinians land that has absolutely nothing on it, land that is totally barren and let the Palestinians improve it themselves, if they can.

Your opinion is duly noted.

Quote:

As for the "aid" convoy approaching Israel, they have every right to stop, board, and inspect ANY vessel that is entering their territorial waters, irregardless of where that vessel is flagged.
The US Coast Guard does it all the time with vessels entering or approaching US waters.
And Coast Guard boarding parties are also armed, so that they can defend themselves if needed.
Are you actually saying that Israel does not have that same right?

I haven't said anything about the aid convoy approaching Israel.

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@InfraBlue,

You said that Israel MUST be eliminated.
That is what I was refering to when I asked if it was a joke.

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@mysteryman,

Oh.
Ok.

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@InfraBlue,

Quote:

If home and property were arrogated from your grandmother, you should be allowed recourse to redress the injustice.

Ever hear about the American Indian ?

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

More evidence of the perfidy of Turkey

One can only hope they have seen the light and will give nationhood to the Kurds, seeing they support Palestine so enthusiastically.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

If there is a people on earth who deserve their own small patch of dirt, it is the Jews.

Why?

There's no other religious group who deserves their own patch of dirt.

If you want to be so generous with other peoples' land, why not cut out a chunk of Texas to give them their own patch of dirt?

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@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
Israel will never agree to the Right of Return, therefore the state of Israel must be eliminated.

Thats a joke, right???
You are saying that any country that wont allow people whose ancestry is from there to return and claim their ancestral lands should therefore be eliminated.

My moms side of the family is originally from Sweden.
My grandmother emigrated to the US, along with her parents, in 1922.
Should I be allowed to go to Sweden and demand that my grandmothers family home and property be returned to me?

Most people don't mean 'taking property' when they say 'right of return.'

Quote:

If you really think that Israel should just roll over and give in to the Palestinians, many of whom were not born in Israel and have no claim to anything in Israel, then you need to learn a little more.

Why should the Pals roll over and give in to the Israelis - which were a people who were not born in Israel and had no claim to anything in it? Remember that they were an occupied people that had all their best land given away by a foreign invader - they should just shut the **** up about that, in your opinion?

Quote:

If anything, Israel should conduct a scorched earth policy.
If they decide to give in to the Palestinians, then Israel should destroy every building, every hospital, every road, every factory, every water treatment plant, every gas station, every farm, and everything else that was built by Israeli's.
They should return to the Palestinians land that has absolutely nothing on it, land that is totally barren and let the Palestinians improve it themselves, if they can.

This accomplishes nothing productive, except to make you feel self-righteous. But; my guess is that they would jump at the opportunity.

Quote:

As for the "aid" convoy approaching Israel, they have every right to stop, board, and inspect ANY vessel that is entering their territorial waters, irregardless of where that vessel is flagged.

The key word, of course, being 'entering.'

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

Israel Kills 10 in Palestinian Aid Convoy

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