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Israel Kills 10 in Palestinian Aid Convoy

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 11:56 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
There is no evidence that this has led to Palestinian hardship.


Quote:
What has been the impact of the blockade on Gaza?

It has affected everything from sanitation to schools, agriculture to healthcare. Unemployment has soared and blackouts have become common. UN statistics show that around 70% of Gazans live on less than $1 a day, 75% rely on food aid and 60% have no daily access to water. Humanitarian aid is in theory allowed in, but UN agencies and charities claim that the Israelis have banned any items that are humanitarian in nature but could be put to alternative use. Items said to face delays getting into Gaza include shelter kits, health and paediatric hygiene kits, bedding, kitchen utensils, school textbooks and stationery. The World Bank estimates that 80% of Gaza's imports are smuggled in by tunnel. The goods, which are taxed by Hamas, attract inflated prices that are out of the reach of most ordinary residents.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/31/q-a-gaza-freedom-flotilla

0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 12:02 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Breaking the blockade was not a humanitarian effort because it wasn't necessary in order to provide Gaza with food or medical supplies.


Oh please.

Read my post above.

msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 12:13 pm
From the Guardian (UK):

Quote:
Q&A: The Gaza Freedom flotilla

What were the flotilla's goals, and did Israel violate international law?
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/5/31/1275333007489/The-Mavi-Marmara-005.jpg
The Mavi Marmara Two ultra-Orthodox Jews look at the Mavi Marmara off the coast of Israel. Photograph: David Buimovitch/AFP/Getty Images

What was the aim of the Gaza Freedom flotilla?

The Free Gaza movement says it was intended to deliver aid to Gaza to get around the Israeli blockade and "to raise international awareness about the prison-like closure of the Gaza Strip and pressure the international community to review its sanctions policy and end its support for continued Israeli occupation". The movement is an international coalition of pro-Palestinian human rights organisations and activists. It has been endorsed by Desmond Tutu and Noam Chomsky and counts on the support of a number of Jewish groups that campaign for the rights of Palestinians.

Israel's deputy foreign minister, Danny Ayalon, said: "The armada of hate and violence in support of the Hamas terror organisation was a premeditated and outrageous provocation. The organisers are well-known for their ties to global Jihad, al-Qaida and Hamas. They have a history of arms smuggling and deadly terror. On board the ship we found weapons that were prepared in advance and used against our forces. The organisers' intent was violent, their method was violent, and unfortunately, the results were violent."

Israel has singled out the Turkish-based Insani Yardim Vakfi or IHH ("humanitarian relief fund") as a radical Islamic organisation.

What has been the impact of the blockade on Gaza?


It has affected everything from sanitation to schools, agriculture to healthcare. Unemployment has soared and blackouts have become common. UN statistics show that around 70% of Gazans live on less than $1 a day, 75% rely on food aid and 60% have no daily access to water. Humanitarian aid is in theory allowed in, but UN agencies and charities claim that the Israelis have banned any items that are humanitarian in nature but could be put to alternative use. Items said to face delays getting into Gaza include shelter kits, health and paediatric hygiene kits, bedding, kitchen utensils, school textbooks and stationery. The World Bank estimates that 80% of Gaza's imports are smuggled in by tunnel. The goods, which are taxed by Hamas, attract inflated prices that are out of the reach of most ordinary residents.

Israel says the objective of the blockade is to hold Hamas "responsible and accountable" for rocket attacks on Israeli territory. It also wants to pressure the group to release Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier held captive for four years. Ultimately, its goal is to bring down Hamas, which it views as a terrorist organisation. The government hopes to weaken Hamas by constraining its ability to govern. Independent observers say this is not working. John Holmes, the United Nations emergency relief coordinator, has described the blockade as "collective punishment" of the civilian population of the Gaza Strip.

Was the Israeli action legal?

Israel had vowed to block the flotilla from reaching Gaza, accusing the organisers of embarking on "an act of provocation" against the Israeli military, and claiming its entry into the 20 nautical mile closure of the sea off Gaza would amount to a violation of international law. But there is mounting criticism that Israel breached international standards and human rights law through its use of armed force. International human rights law protects the right to life, and the UN has strict guidelines on the response by military and police in law enforcement situations. The use of violence is prohibited unless it is strictly necessary, and the use of lethal force can only be justified in self-defence or to protect life. Human Rights Watch said: "We are calling for a credible and impartial full investigation of the incident by the Israeli authorities."

Israeli spokespeople have insisted that the attack was an act of self defence but international law also requires that any use of force is proportionate.

Questions have also been raised about the violation of international maritime law by Israel, after reports that the flotilla was around 80 miles from Gaza's coast when Israeli commandos boarded.

The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that an independent and effective investigation, conducted by non-military officials, needs to ask whether the army used proportionate force, whether the forces were trained to cope with this type of event, whether they were correctly equipped, what open-fire regulations were given to the soldiers, and whether alternative options were considered.

What are the likely political repercussions?

"Proximity talks" between Israel and the western-backed Palestinian Authority resumed this month but there is little expectation of any meaningful progress. The authority is at odds with the Islamists of Hamas, who control the Gaza Strip, but Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, angrily condemned Israel's "massacre".

International reaction to Israel may provoke a rethink of the policy of shunning Hamas. Today's events quickly prompted calls for an easing or lifting of the blockade of Gaza. Israel says it wants peace and will continue to seek a solution through negotiations.

• This article was amended on 1 June 2010. In the original Human Rights Watch was quoted as calling for "a credible and partial" investigation by Israel. This has been corrected.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/31/q-a-gaza-freedom-flotilla
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 12:24 pm
Link to Haaretz, an Israeli online newspaper. Plenty of articles & commentary & also editorial on the fall-out of the attack on the aid convoy.:

http://www.haaretz.com/
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 01:40 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
Breaking the blockade was not a humanitarian effort because it wasn't necessary in order to provide Gaza with food or medical supplies.


Oh please.

Read my post above.




And may I suggest you read this link to an article in that Zioninst, Right-wing rag the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2010/06/01/GR2010060100002.html?sid=ST2010053101699

Quote:
"Israel delivers about 15,000 tons of supplies and aid to Gaza every week."


mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 01:43 pm
You all do realize that Israel is under no obligation to allow any type of aid or supplies to Gaza or the West Bank to cross its territory, dont you.

Since Israel is an independent country, they have no obligation to provide free passage to another country, especially since the Palestinians claim to be independent.

While none of us know what happened at sea on those ships, and we never will, from the videos I have seen it looks like both sides were in the wrong.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 01:52 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

While none of us know what happened at sea on those ships, and we never will, from the videos I have seen it looks like both sides were in the wrong.

I'm sure, no-one can the international borders on a video.
But it has been quite easy to track the position(s) otherwise.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 04:53 pm
I love the argument that the response of the Israeli commandos was disproportionate.

When you are under deadly attack, what is the proportionate response?

Al Jazeera reports that "Activists" in the flotilla were quoted as saying their goal was to break the blockade or become holy martyrs.

If the goal was to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza, there was no need to break the blockade or to die trying.

Al Jazeera also reports that passengers on the 6th ship were chanting what I believe was a passage in the Koran that declared to Jews that the Muslims were going to kill them. (If their source wasn't the Koran, I will stand corrected).

This was reckless provocation, pure and simple.

Why, until this incident, did Egypt participate in the blockade? Because they want to viciously oppress the Palestinians as much as the brutal Zionists?

What would you critics of Israel have them do?

Allow ships free passage to Gaza, notwithstanding the fact that some of these ships would carry weapons for Hamas?

What would you have them do beyond what they offered to do in the Oslo Accords?

msolga
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 06:09 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
And may I suggest you read this link to an article in that Zioninst, Right-wing rag the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2010/06/01/GR2010060100002.html?sid=ST2010053101699


And may I suggest you read this far more detailed account (from the BBC) of the deprivations experienced by the citizens of the Gaza Strip since the Israeli blockade began. Including impact on food, fuel, electricity, sewage and water, businesses, agriculture, construction & medical care.... :

Quote:
What gets in and out of Gaza, and what impact has it had?:

....For much of the three years since Hamas took control of Gaza, its 1.5m people have relied on less than a quarter of the volume of imported supplies they received in December 2005....

....Amnesty International has dubbed the blockade "collective punishment" resulting in a "humanitarian crisis"; UN officials have described the situation as "grim", "deteriorating" and a "medieval siege", but Israel says there are no shortages in Gaza, pointing to the aid it allows in.[/b]


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm
0 Replies
 
MushroomMan
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 06:10 pm
So what part of Islam do you guys hail from?
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 06:28 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Al Jazeera also reports that passengers on the 6th ship were chanting what I believe was a passage in the Koran that declared to Jews that the Muslims were going to kill them.

This was reckless provocation, pure and simple.


I am still having trouble understanding why Israel took this action on ships that, apparently, were still in international waters. Could not they have just precluded the flotilla from docking?
As for the quote above, that is, pure and simple, stupid.
Chanting is reckless provocation?
We can't allow that at 4 am in the morning when armed troops rappel down on to a ship. No chanting, damn it.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 06:36 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
What would you critics of Palestine have them do?

Allow American arms shipments free passage to Israel, notwithstanding the fact that massive shipments of weaponry go to the Israeli military? Do you guys tuck in some biological weapons too?

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 06:38 pm
@McTag,
Quote:
Not until the USA comes out and speaks the truth will the situation change for the better.


I would have said, when pigs fly, but you know McTag, they just might get one or two off the ground.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 06:42 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
After the "Activists" attacked them with pipes and knives, and wrestled firearms away from them and open fire with them, the SEALS


Civilians wrestled firearms away from SEALs [a little plug for the ole USofA, Finn?] and with these firearms, they couldn't manage to hit a one. Sounds a little fishy, but hey, who would doubt fair-hand Finn?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 06:43 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
When you are under deadly attack, what is the proportionate response?... This was reckless provocation, pure and simple.


You are not questioning the appropriateness of the attack (nor the provocation it caused) by the Israeli army, Finn. (This is being widely seen in the Israeli media as a public relations disaster for Israel. I'll post you some links from Israeli commentary on the impact of the incident, if you like.)

At 4 in the morning, the Israeli army attacked the activist's ship. This took place outside Israeli territorial waters. The Israeli army was fully armed. The activists were not similarly armed, no guns or similar weapons were found on board the ship. The activists responded to the attack by using wooden bars & pipes against their attackers. Who knows (at this stage) which side was responsible for "the first blow"? Maybe we never will know, with any certainty. But this was hardly some battle in which both sides exactly had equal capacity to harm each other. But I think your argument that the Israeli army was under "deadly attack" or under "reckless provocation" is more that a bit of a stretch.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 06:51 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
And may I suggest you read this link to an article in that Zioninst, Right-wing rag the Washington Post:


So you think that Zionists and right wingers are two peas in a pod, do you, Finn?

You should be skeptical of any US newspaper. These are the guys that dutifully reported M. Albright casually telling how half a million Iraqi children dying from an immoral US embargo was a worthwhile price to pay.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 07:08 pm
Editorial from Haaretz, an Israeli online daily. :

Quote:
The price of flawed policy

Relations with Turkey will probably deteriorate further, and there may even be serious damage on the official level.

Haaretz Editorial

When a regular, well-armed, well-trained army goes to war against a "freedom flotilla" of civilian vessels laden with civilians, food and medication, the outcome is foretold - and it doesn't matter whether the confrontation achieved its goal and prevented the flotilla from reaching Gaza. The violent confrontation, whether caused by poor military planning or poor execution, resulted from flawed policy, wars of prestige, and from a profound misunderstanding of the confrontation's meanings and repercussions.

The grave political damage caused by the confrontation is all too clear. Relations with Turkey will probably deteriorate further, and there may even be serious damage on the official level. The proximity talks with the Palestinians, which started lamely and with low expectations, will have trouble proceeding, now that Israel has attacked a ship intended to aid Gazans languishing under a four-year siege. Hamas claimed an outstanding victory without firing a single rocket, Egypt is under redoubled pressure to undermine the siege by opening the Rafah crossing, and it's reasonable to assume Europe and the United States will not be able to let Israel get away with a mere reprimand.

All these developments are little surprise to anyone, and shouldn't have surprised the policy makers in Jerusalem. Nevertheless, it seemed no one could resist the temptation to show the Israel Defense Forces' strength in a place the IDF should not have been in the first place. Because the question was not who would win the confrontation, but who would win more public opinion points. In this test, Benjamin Netanyahu's government failed completely. Israel let its policy of maintaining the siege on Gaza become an existential matter. This policy boomeranged and cost Israel its international legitimacy.

The decision makers' negligence is threatening the security of Israelis, and Israel's global status. Someone must be held responsible for this disgraceful failure. There is no way to convince Israel's citizens and its friends around the world that Israel regrets the confrontation and its results, and is learning from its errors, other than setting up a state inquiry committee to investigate the decision-making process, and to decide who should pay for this dangerous policy.


http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-price-of-flawed-policy-1.293445

dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 07:12 pm
@msolga,
it's a very ugly situation with no obvious solution.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 07:25 pm
@dyslexia,
The solution is for Israel to start good faith negotiations to end the blockade of the Gaza Strip. This blockade has gone on for far too long & has caused terrible hardship. If anything , Hamas has actually gained (in the PR war for hearts & minds) at the expense of the ordinary people. Apparently more activist ships are now planned. Egypt is now under intense internal pressure regarding its part in the blockade.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 07:32 pm
I've been reading up on this more.

I'm still very disappointed in Israel, but I additionally think that the Flotilla has a significant role in this. This situation is such that an onion with many layers is cut open, and inside the layers are displayed.

People died

They attacked the IDF

The IDF raided their ship

The ship was civilians with no weapons

The ship was planning to cross the blockade

The ship was still in international waters

The Flotilla directly made it's intention known that they would cross the line

Israel has made clear it's policy on the blockade

The blockade hurts Gaza

The blockade is meant to keep weapons from entering into Gaza

There were no weapons on the ship

etc etc etc

I think Israel has done itself no favors here. I get their hard-line, but the problem is that they seem to act first and answer (maybe) later. Their actions almost are entirely militant and rarely bureaucratic in resolving this kind of conflict.

On the other hand, the Flotilla directly stated that their goal was to raise awareness about the blockade by trying to get past it. They knew, or definitely should have known, this would not happen successfully. It seems to me that they did aim to provoke a conflict. I doubt they knew it would have lethal consequences, but I don't see their actions as being any more compromising than Israel's.

I may be naked and unarmed, but if I jump the fence at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, I will not be surprised that I may get hurt. I will be less surprised if I go as far as to announce my intention to jump the fence and the White House Security directly explains prior to said action what the policy is. If I would be seriously hurt or killed in this attempt, I think would raise questions about the judgment of the individuals involved and their use of force. It would also raise questions about my judgment.

A
R
T
 

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