18
   

Israel Kills 10 in Palestinian Aid Convoy

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 06:48 pm
ABC NEWS video. Responses from Israel & from other parts of the world.:

Quote:
Israel says aid ship attack was provoked
Source: ABC News
Published: Tuesday, June 1, 2010 7:05 AEST
Expires: Monday, August 30, 2010 7:05 AEST

Critics call Israel's raid on an aid ship 'state terrorism', but Israel insists it acted in self defence


http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2010/06/01/2914583.htm
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 07:17 pm
@msolga,
At this point, who's to say, yet, it seems odd to cut video feeds, cameras that could furnish proof that one is acting innocently.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 07:33 pm
@JTT,
It also seems odd, say nothing of contentious, to deny the detained activists access to their own diplomats. Foreign diplomats are not permitted in the processing area, along with the media. (According to that ABC News video report I posted.)
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 08:27 pm
I was interested to see how the Israeli media was covering this issue.
This is a link to the front page of Haaretz, an online news site. Interesting. Lots of articles & commentary.:


http://www.haaretz.com/

Link to the Jerusalem Post:

http://www.jpost.com/
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 08:37 pm
@msolga,
Link to the front page of Aljazeera:

http://english.aljazeera.net/
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 09:50 pm
@JTT,
The point is your "mass murderers stick together" mentality. When I posted this, I almost posted a "countdown until JTT runs in and goes out of his way to point out American war crimes." I decided that would be too cynical of me. It seems I was wrong.

JTT wrote:
Have you ever started a thread pointing out that the USA has committed terrorist act upon terrorist act against Cuba stretching over some forty years, including spreading virulent diseases among the general population?

I don't need to start a thread on Cuba for me to be able to start a thread on Israel. In fact, Cuba doesn't have anything to do with what happened on the Aid ship in either side of the issue here. Neither Israel apologists nor their accusers will ever need to refer to Cuba at any point.

JTT wrote:
This killing of ten is reprehensible. How does it stack up against a hundred thousand in Iraq, a few million in Vietnam, what, 20 or 30 thousand in Afghanistan?

What's the point of your question? Better yet, enlightened one, tell me YOUR answer to this question.

Since YOU seem to know so well the villians of the world, since the outrage YOU are familiar with is the only acceptable emotion, since YOU alone dictate the terms in which anyone else can talk about any tragedy, how about YOU tell us how 9-10 (number reporting is mixed) dead compares to all of the thousands.

JTT wrote:
I know, I know, we don't do body counts, just a bunch of filthy foreigners and all.

The people on the Aid ship are "foreigners" too you know. Your strawman is noted. You missed the point here completely.

A
R
T
anton
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 10:13 pm
@JTT,
As a retired Merchant Navy ship Captain I can state with A1 certainty, "Armed boarding of an unarmed Merchant ship in International waters is most certainly an act of piracy."
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 10:40 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
The point is your "mass murderers stick together" mentality.


It's not my mentality, those are the facts. Check the votes at the UN. I replied to your "what will the US say, not much" with the facts.

Quote:
When I posted this, I almost posted a "countdown until JTT runs in and goes out of his way to point out American war crimes." I decided that would be too cynical of me. It seems I was wrong.


If you feel the need, do so next time. Maybe you could take bets, have an A2K pool.

Quote:
I don't need to start a thread on Cuba for me to be able to start a thread on Israel.


You're right, you definitely do not. I just always kinda wonder how folks can muster outrage when the family itself is so highly dysfunctional.

Quote:
What's the point of your question? Better yet, enlightened one, tell me YOUR answer to this question.

Since YOU seem to know so well the villians of the world, since the outrage YOU are familiar with is the only acceptable emotion, since YOU alone dictate the terms in which anyone else can talk about any tragedy, how about YOU tell us how 9-10 (number reporting is mixed) dead compares to all of the thousands.


As I mentioned, this number [9-10 or 40???] can easily be described as reprehensible. You don't need any help to know where to place Iraq or Cuba or Nicaragua or Afghanistan or Panama or Grenada or Vietnam or Cambodia or Laos or ... .

Quote:
The people on the Aid ship are "foreigners" too you know. Your strawman is noted. You missed the point here completely.


You missed the point, FA. I wasn't referring to those on the ships in this particular incident.



failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 01:08 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
The point is your "mass murderers stick together" mentality.


It's not my mentality, those are the facts. Check the votes at the UN. I replied to your "what will the US say, not much" with the facts.

You are introducing the UN now, not then JTT. You're rapid obsession with villainous USA is your blind spot. For all your supposed compassion for all the people who the USA has killed, you seen to be a real big asshole about dominating the topics of others pain by hijacking and co-opting their tragedy so you can soap box to say the same thing you say every time.

JTT wrote:

Quote:
When I posted this, I almost posted a "countdown until JTT runs in and goes out of his way to point out American war crimes." I decided that would be too cynical of me. It seems I was wrong.


If you feel the need, do so next time. Maybe you could take bets, have an A2K pool.

If I felt it would make a difference, I would.

JTT wrote:

Quote:
I don't need to start a thread on Cuba for me to be able to start a thread on Israel.


You're right, you definitely do not. I just always kinda wonder how folks can muster outrage when the family itself is so highly dysfunctional.

You are the moral authority on outrage JTT. Nobody can experience it without your good blessings.

How can you muster outrage day in and day out at the nebulous USA, and then come in and diminish the suffering of people who are the victims of other states?

You reek of sick irony.

JTT wrote:

Quote:
What's the point of your question? Better yet, enlightened one, tell me YOUR answer to this question.

Since YOU seem to know so well the villians of the world, since the outrage YOU are familiar with is the only acceptable emotion, since YOU alone dictate the terms in which anyone else can talk about any tragedy, how about YOU tell us how 9-10 (number reporting is mixed) dead compares to all of the thousands.


As I mentioned, this number [9-10 or 40???] can easily be described as reprehensible. You don't need any help to know where to place Iraq or Cuba or Nicaragua or Afghanistan or Panama or Grenada or Vietnam or Cambodia or Laos or ... .

What a cowardly response. You don't want to say that thousands dying is worse, but you wish to leverage the numbers to make trivial the attempt to draw attention to this specific tragedy! The truth is that you know, like all people here, that there is no need for greater adjectives to describe horror in more vivid terms. How profane. You want others to have qualify their rage, but you seem to behave as if you're exempt.

JTT wrote:

Quote:
The people on the Aid ship are "foreigners" too you know. Your strawman is noted. You missed the point here completely.


You missed the point, FA. I wasn't referring to those on the ships in this particular incident.

This will be the end of this distraction JTT. This thread is very specifically about those people on the ship. If you lack the ability to focus on this, you're not contributing.

A
R
T
McTag
 
  5  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 01:43 am

Let's not forget, Israel fired phosphorus shells into a UN compound in Gaza, a compound which was being used as a refuge for civilian families during last year's invasion.

Israel plays by no-one's rules but its own, and the UN might as well save its breath, and its ink.

Not until the USA comes out and speaks the truth will the situation change for the better.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 01:50 am
@McTag,
Endorsing McTag's words above.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 07:03 am
@JTT,
I usually have jtt on ignore, but this comment is simply too much...

Quote:
Have you ever started a thread pointing out that the USA has committed terrorist act upon terrorist act against Cuba stretching over some forty years, including spreading virulent diseases among the general population?


So I have to ask...
Do you have ant independent prrof that the US has spread virulent diseases in Cuba?

You claim it has been done, so please tell us all which diseases, how the US did it, and when they did it.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 07:07 am
@mysteryman,
i'm pretty sure it was a thursday, about tea time
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 10:27 am
Whether or not it complies with international law (and it is not certain that it does not), Israel and until they just turned tail , Egypt has imposed a naval blockade on Gaza to prevent the smuggling of weapons to Hamas.

There is no evidence that this has led to Palestinian hardship. Israel has allowed aide ships to offload their cargo at an Israeli port, and after inspecting it for contraband, trucked it too Gaza.

Breaking the blockade was not a humanitarian effort because it wasn't necessary in order to provide Gaza with food or medical supplies.

It was at the very least a political action, and more likely deliberate provocation.

No European country would allow these ships to depart from their ports because they knew the intent of the flotilla was provocation. Turkey, for one reason or another, did.

The Israelis warned the flotilla not to attempt to break the blockade and urged them to offload their cargo at Haifa, promising to deliver it to Gaza after inspection for weapons and materials used in the construction of Hama smuggling tunnels.

The flotilla rejected the offer and ignored the warning.

Israeli helicopters and gun boats met the flotilla and after their warning to turn around were ignored, advised them to stand down and allow boarding. Five of the six ships complied without incident. "Activists" on the sixth ship, observing what was transpiring stood in wait for the Israeli commandos.

Before the Israeli SEALS could even set foot on the deck, they were attacked. This is quite evident in the video taken of the event.

The Israelis boarded the ships with paintball guns. Clearly, it was not their intent to board the ship to kill any of its passengers. After the "Activists" attacked them with pipes and knives, and wrestled firearms away from them and open fire with them, the SEALS radioed their commander for permission to return fire, which was granted. 9 passengers were killed, and seven Israelis were wounded, one seriously.

I'm sure that there will be continued arguments about whether or not the Israeli's opened fire as soon as they boarded the ship, but the only video evidence that I have seen shows this not to be the case.

At best it was incredibly reckless of the Activists to attack armed Israeli commandos. The resulting casualties could have been much higher. What possible reason can be offered for their attack (other than the bogus one of self-defense)? Righteous anger?

Should the Israeli commandos simply have accepted their own slaughter through some insane act of conscious?

Should the Israelis have allowed the ships through the blockade, knowing that there was a likelihood that weapons were part of the cargo, and if not that they would still be opening the door for other ships to smuggle them in?

Obviously the maneuver on the 6th ship didn't go according to plan, and it’s certainly possible that the Israeli commander could have taken steps that might have avoided it (better reconnoitering of the conditions on the deck before the SEALS were lowered to it, for example), but for all Muslim nations and a great many in the West, Israel is always going to be blamed, no matter what the facts.

Where is all of the international outrage for Hamas whose constant attacks on Israel from Gaza has made the blockade necessary? Thankfully the US in its public statement hasn't ignored their role in this matter, but I'm sure they will get no credit in this regard from most on the Left.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 10:33 am
I dont know where it came from, but Fox news this morning showed a video of Israeli soldiers getting attacked with pipes as soon as they touched the deck of one of the ships.
The same video also shows an Israeli soldier getting thrown overboard by some of the people on that same ship.

So, while I still dont know everything that happened (and neither do those condemning Israel), I have a feeling that the fighting wasnt entirely the fault of Israel.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 10:33 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
well Finn I'm surely glad that you waited for all the facts to come in before passing along your judgment.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 11:24 am
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:

well Finn I'm surely glad that you waited for all the facts to come in before passing along your judgment.


My post is based on facts.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 11:47 am
@failures art,
Quote:
You are introducing the UN now, not then JTT.


What the hell does this mean?

Quote:

You're rapid obsession with villainous USA is your blind spot.


It's hardly my blind spot. It does seem to be yours though and countless others.

Quote:
For all your supposed compassion for all the people who the USA has killed, you seen to be a real big asshole about dominating the topics of others pain by hijacking and co-opting their tragedy so you can soap box to say the same thing you say every time.


You, normally a relatively sane individual, FA, seem to have gone off the deep end. Your tragedy?

Don't let it dominate you and what you want to say unless, unless, the facts are actually starting to get to you. Unless you think that introducing dengue fever to a civilian population and swine flu to a country's food source is part of normal trade relations.

Quote:
How can you muster outrage day in and day out at the nebulous USA, and then come in and diminish the suffering of people who are the victims of other states?


I've hardly done that. I've pointed out those responsible for these actions and that is, in large measure, the USA, certainly with a great deal of help from Gt Britain.

The better question is, how can you go day to day without mustering any outrage over what the USA has done to all these countries and peoples? You expect that there will be a difference in this case; actually no, you didn't expect there to be any difference.

Quote:
What a cowardly response. You don't want to say that thousands dying is worse, but you wish to leverage the numbers to make trivial the attempt to draw attention to this specific tragedy!


Actually, that's exactly what I said. I said that this smaller number is reprehensible, which entails that the action is reprehensible. Then I said, "You don't need any help to know where to place Iraq or Cuba or Nicaragua or Afghanistan or Panama or Grenada or Vietnam or Cambodia ... ".

Evidently, you do need some help. Those actions were way worse than reprehensible, by a couple orders of magnitude. They were way worse in their longevity and pure unadulterated malice.

Quote:
You want others to have qualify their rage, but you seem to behave as if you're exempt.


I don't follow you but feel free to rage away, FA. But let's do have a wee bit of honesty.

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 11:50 am
@mysteryman,
Quote:
So I have to ask...
Do you have ant independent prrof that the US has spread virulent diseases in Cuba?

You claim it has been done, so please tell us all which diseases, how the US did it, and when they did it.


http://able2know.org/topic/145157-1

0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 11:51 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:

There is no evidence that this has led to Palestinian hardship.


Rolling Eyes

Incredible, incredible ignorance. Just stunning.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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