18
   

Israel Kills 10 in Palestinian Aid Convoy

 
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 11:48 am
http://masada2000.org/RachelCorrie-GunBoat.jpg
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 04:40 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:
You're incorrect about the civilians losing their civilian status and that Israel would have had the legal ability to simply attack and sink the ship.


No I'm not.



failures art wrote:
Please provide a citation to support your claim.


http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/560

"98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked."



failures art wrote:
I accept your concession in advance on this point.


You're pretty good at writing checks you can't cash.

A little history would do you some good. You should look into all the Japanese shipping that was sunk by US submarines in WWII.



failures art wrote:
You're claim regarding the targeting of civilians as being the defining feature of terrorism is also false.


No it isn't.



failures art wrote:
At no point, has any American administration (or any other country) operated under such a definition.

A
R
T


I'm not aware of any administration having an official definition of terrorism of any sort.

However:

"The NCTC 2004 report defines what presently constitutes an act of "significant" international terrorism in the eyes of the U.S. government. "An incident was included if it was premeditated; perpetrated by a subnational or clandestine agent; politically motivated, potentially including religious, philosophical, or culturally symbolic motivations; violent; and PERPETRATED AGAINST A NONCOMBATANT TARGET," the report states."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/2005/06/sec-050624-rferl01.htm
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 04:40 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The US has not targeted civilians within the past hundred years, if ever.


Carpet bombing in Vietnam


Going after military targets = civilians not targeted.



JTT wrote:
Napalming villages in Vietnam


Going after military targets = civilians not targeted.



JTT wrote:
Free fire zones in Vietnam


Going after military targets = civilians not targeted.



JTT wrote:
My Lai Massacre


The independent act of a war criminal -- hardly US policy.



JTT wrote:
The Tiger Force massacres


Fiction.



JTT wrote:
Carpet bombing in Laos and Cambodia


Going after military targets = civilians not targeted.



JTT wrote:
Fire bombing in Tokyo


Going after military targets = civilians not targeted.



JTT wrote:
Nuclear bombs against Japanese


Going after military targets = civilians not targeted.

Sheesh. Hiroshima had to have been the biggest military target in history. Just how ignorant are you?



JTT wrote:
Nicaragua

El Salvador


Acts of US allies are not acts of the US.



JTT wrote:
The Philippines


That was more than a hundred years ago, but I'm sure that they were going after military targets.



JTT wrote:
Want more, boy?


Your fatuous attitude does little to mask the reality that you've failed to show an actual case of the US targeting civilians in the past hundred years.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 04:40 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
You could at the least tell Oral that he's full of **** because you know that he's full of ****.


Big words from someone who can't produce a single credible claim that I am wrong about anything.....
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 04:51 pm
@gungasnake,
If only there were more like her..... Very Happy
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 05:06 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Carpet bombing in Vietnam
Carpet bombing in Laos and Cambodia
Of supply lines and trails in the jungle. What about the Vietnamese cutting of the arm of children that had ben innoculated under the "hearts and minds" program ? The Vietnamese use of women and children as soldiers ? Clearly you are picking and choosing which side to attack.

Quote:
Nuclear bombs against Japanese
Just how many people do you think would have died otherwise ? But we cant use Nuclear weapons because it has nuclear in it and low brow fools like you dont know what it means.

Quote:
My Lai Massacre
Did the Vietnamese ever put any of their people on trial for war crimes ?
Quote:
Fire bombing in Tokyo
Of all the war crimes committed by the Japanese you choose to attack the allies.....why is that ?

Quote:
Nicaragua
El Salvador
The Philippines
The Cold War was a war.
Quote:
US official documents that have been recently been declassified show that......
What documents ? More left wing bullshit.

You have no morals just an anti-US stance that is a sign of considerable mental disorder and a need for help.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 05:11 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
You're pretty good at writing checks you can't cash.
Arty declares himself the winner every time. It is all part of an inability to deal with reality.
Quote:
Quote:
You're claim regarding the targeting of civilians as being the defining feature of terrorism is also false.
No it isn't.
You are correct of course. Targeting military targets is an act of war or murder, not terrorism.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 06:04 pm
@oralloy,
Gee, you skipped Cuba.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 06:14 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
If only there were more like her.....


More like St. Pancake...

Whatever happened to that poor girl was no more than about 35% of her own making in my estimation:

http://zioneocon.blogspot.com/arafat%20with%20rachel%20corrie%20parents.jpg

http://zioneocon.blogspot.com/2003_09_21_archive.html

That's St. Pancake's parents and PLO Chairman You're a Fart of course and granted that hideous little school she attended had something to do with what happened, both parents need to absolutely have the **** beat out of them on general principles.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 06:17 pm
@Ionus,
BTW.....

You're an Israeli sub commander and a ship with the name "Rachel Corrie" painted on its bow comes sailing into Israeli waters in your zone... I figure I'd use about five or six torpedoes; how many would you use?
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 07:06 pm
Quote:
12 October 2000- USS COLE terrorist attack
While refueling in Aden Harbor, Yemen USS COLE was victim of terrorist attack. USS COLE was attacked on Port Mid-Ships by a small boat with explosives onboard. The result of which led to a 40 by 60 foot hole and the loss of 17 sailors.

Source: http://www.cole.navy.mil/site%20pages/history.aspx

This would be the official .mil site for the USS Cole. It seems that this attack is considered very specifically a terrorist attack despite your claim.

More here...

Write up on USS Cole attack.

United States Department of Defense wrote:

The United States Department of Defense defines terrorism as:
premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against non-combatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.
—Title 22 of the United States Code section 2656f(d).[53]

A footnote at the bottom of this definition qualifies and explains the Department of Defense's understanding of this legal definition:
For the purposes of this definition, the term "noncombatant" is interpreted to include,in addition to civilians, military personnel who at the time of the incident are unarmed and/or not on duty ... We also consider as acts of terrorism attacks on military installations or on armed personnel when a state of military hostilities does not exist at the site, such as bombings against US bases in Europe, the Philippines or elsewhere


And just for JTT...

Edward Peck wrote:
In 1985, when I was the Deputy Director of the Reagan White House Task Force on Terrorism, [my working group was asked] to come up with a definition of terrorism that could be used throughout the government. We produced about six, and each and every case, they were rejected, because careful reading would indicate that our own country had been involved in some of those activities. […] After the task force concluded its work, Congress [passed] U.S. Code Title 18, Section 2331 ... the US definition of terrorism. […] one of the terms, "international terrorism," means "activities that," I quote, "appear to be intended to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping." […] Yes, well, certainly, you can think of a number of countries that have been involved in such activities. Ours is one of them. […] And so, the terrorist, of course, is in the eye of the beholder.

Edward Peck, former U.S. Chief of Mission in Iraq (under Jimmy Carter) and former ambassador to Mauritania


Wikipedia has a lot on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_terrorism

Oralloy - You still didn't cite how the flotilla passengers somehow magically weren't civilians anymore. If you can't, you've talked yourself in a circle regarding attacking non-combatants. It would mean that Israel had committed terrorism by your definition otherwise.

Quite the tight spot you've talked yourself into.

A
R
T
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 10:01 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
And just for JTT...


Yeah, like I need to be brought up to date. Smile

But thanks, Art.

Better that it's for Cycloptichorn, Tico and all the other non-believers. Cy actually knows but he just has a great deal of difficulty getting it out.

Quote:
And so, the terrorist, of course, is in the eye of the beholder.


That's a cop out on Ed's part. What makes it worse is the depth of the hypocrisy, the blatant propaganda, the big myth that is America.

0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 03:26 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
how many would you use?
How many have I got ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 03:31 am
@failures art,
Quote:
It seems that this attack is considered very specifically a terrorist attack despite your claim.
The USA government also called it a cowardly act to take away criticism for being unprepared. Personally I think it took courage and it is the kind of attack I prefer to see rather than attacks against civilians.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 05:59 am
@failures art,
failures art wrote:
Quote:
12 October 2000- USS COLE terrorist attack
While refueling in Aden Harbor, Yemen USS COLE was victim of terrorist attack. USS COLE was attacked on Port Mid-Ships by a small boat with explosives onboard. The result of which led to a 40 by 60 foot hole and the loss of 17 sailors.

Source: http://www.cole.navy.mil/site%20pages/history.aspx

This would be the official .mil site for the USS Cole. It seems that this attack is considered very specifically a terrorist attack despite your claim.

More here...

Write up on USS Cole attack.

United States Department of Defense wrote:

The United States Department of Defense defines terrorism as:
premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against non-combatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.
—Title 22 of the United States Code section 2656f(d).[53]

A footnote at the bottom of this definition qualifies and explains the Department of Defense's understanding of this legal definition:
For the purposes of this definition, the term "noncombatant" is interpreted to include, in addition to civilians, military personnel who at the time of the incident are unarmed and/or not on duty ... We also consider as acts of terrorism attacks on military installations or on armed personnel when a state of military hostilities does not exist at the site, such as bombings against US bases in Europe, the Philippines or elsewhere


That's an intriguing usage of the term non-combatant.



failures art wrote:
Oralloy - You still didn't cite how the flotilla passengers somehow magically weren't civilians anymore.


Yes I did.



failures art wrote:
If you can't, you've talked yourself in a circle regarding attacking non-combatants.


Except I can. Here is a cut-n-paste of part of my previous message:

Quote:
oralloy wrote:
failures art wrote:
Please provide a citation to support your claim.


http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/560

"98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked."





failures art wrote:
It would mean that Israel had committed terrorism by your definition otherwise.


Not exactly. There are a number of factors in the definition of the term terrorism.

I focus on the targeting of civilians because that is the element that makes terrorism so objectionable.

If it were actually true that Israel had targeted civilians, it would be a very grave crime, but terrorism wouldn't quite be the correct term for it.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 06:01 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Gee, you skipped Cuba.


The Cuba nonsense looked especially preposterous. I'd chalk it all up to the "pure fiction" category.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 10:58 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
The Cuba nonsense looked especially preposterous. I'd chalk it all up to the "pure fiction" category.


That's an easy thing for a closed minded psychopath like you to do.
0 Replies
 
Sentience
 
  3  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 03:03 pm
Moral matters and 'who shot first' aside, I would like to point out that Freedom of Seas dictates that any civilian ship may pass through international waters unobstructed.

The law is on the side of the protesters.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 03:25 pm
@Sentience,
Sentience wrote:

Moral matters and 'who shot first' aside, I would like to point out that Freedom of Seas dictates that any civilian ship may pass through international waters unobstructed.

The law is on the side of the protesters.


BS
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 03:51 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
I focus on the targeting of civilians because that is the element that makes terrorism so objectionable.


Carpet bombing in Vietnam 3 to 4 million killed

Napalming villages in Vietnam

Free fire zones in Vietnam

Phosphorus bombs in Iraq

My Lai Massacre

The Tiger Force massacres
Quote:
A report this month in the Toledo Blade uncovers massacres committed by U.S. troops in Vietnam that has gone unreported for 36 years.

In a story that has never been told, an elite platoon torched villages, executed prisoners, and slaughtered an untold number of unarmed civilians between May and November, 1967.

The platoon was called Tiger Force. A small, highly trained unit of 45 paratroopers, Tiger Force was created to spy on enemy forces in one of the most highly contested areas of South Vietnam: the Central Highlands.

For seven months in 1967, they violently lost control and carried out the longest series of atrocities in the Vietnam War.

As their commanders looked the other way, Tiger Force troops dropped grenades into underground bunkers where women and children were hiding. They shot unarmed civilians, in some cases as they begged for their lives. They frequently tortured and shot prisoners, severing ears and scalps for souvenirs.

After learning about the atrocities a few years later, the Army investigated the platoon for 4 1/2 years, finding numerous eyewitnesses and substantiating war crimes. The case reached the highest levels of the Pentagon and the Nixon White House. But in the end, no one was prosecuted and the case buried in the archives for three decades.

AMY GOODMAN: Michael Sallah, I wanted to play a clip from one of the soldiers, former Tiger-Force team leader sergeant William Doyle and in this, he’s speaking with your colleague. You wrote this expose with, Mitch Weiss.

WILLIAM DOYLE: We just didn’t care, you know, what everybody did out there. Everybody was supposed to cover each other’s ass. If they didn’t, they were in mortal danger.

MITCH WEISS: Mm-hmm.

WILLIAM DOYLE: And that’s just the way it was.

MITCH WEISS: How were you living day-to-day?

WILLIAM DOYLE: We didn’t expect to live. Nobody out there with any brains expected to live.

MITCH WEISS: Mm-hmm.

WILLIAM DOYLE: You know, you did any God damn thing you felt like doing.

MITCH WEISS: Mm-hmm.

WILLIAM DOYLE: You’re surprised you’re still alive next week, so, you know, you do any God-damned thing you felt like doiní.

MITCH WEISS: Mm-hmm.

WILLIAM DOYLE: And especially to stay alive. I’m not saying you give up and die. You still gotta live but the way to live is to kill, because you don’t have to worry about anybody thatís dead, but you have to worry about the living The first idea that crosses your mind, you pull the trigger. If it just crosses your mind, you pull the trigger.

MITCH WEISS: So, in other words, if you went into a __ you weren’t sure—

WILLIAM DOYLE: If I walked into a village and everybody wasn’t postured on the ground, I shot those standing up.

AMY GOODMAN: ìI shot those standing up,î saying ìyou didn’t have to worry about those who were dead. You only had to be concerned about the living.î

MICHAEL SALLAH: Yeah. William Doyle offers no remorse or apologies for what he did. He said he would do it all over again. I think if his—One of his other lines was that if—He clearly felt that the war ended too soon. He says, ìIf I had known the war was gonna end that soon, I would have killed more.î That was his version of events. He—

AMY GOODMAN: Well, let me play one more comment of former Tiger-Force team-leader sergeant William Doyle, again speaking with the "Toledo blade’s" Mitch Weiss, describing killing farmers as they planted rice.

WILLIAM DOYLE: Well, some of ëem kept on plantiní rice. You don’t put your head up to look at somebody when you’re planting rice.

MITCH WEISS: Mm-hmm.

WILLIAM DOYLE: You know, you don’t kill with a look.

MITCH WEISS: Mm-hmm.

WILLIAM DOYLE: _

MITCH WEISS: So they were killed because they looked at you guys? Is that what happened?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Yeah, more or less. It comes to your attention, you pull the trigger.

MITCH WEISS: Mm-hmm.

WILLIAM DOYLE: You know? If it crosses your mind to pull the trigger, you want to live, you pull it.

MITCH WEISS: Mm-hmm.

WILLIAM DOYLE: Any mistake you make you make in your own favor.

AMY GOODMAN: ny mistake you make, you make in your own favor." We actually reached sergeant William Doyle on the phone. He wouldn’t come on with us today. But he did say blame it all on me. Blame it all on me. Don’t blame it on anyone else. It’s all my fault. Your response to that, Michael Sallah?

MICHAEL SALLAH: No, it’s not all his fault. It was partly his fault, but there was a culture in the unit that it was a kill-unit and the leadership of the unit, all the way up to the commanders, knew what they were doing. They looked the other way. They allowed it to happen. Now, William Doyle was one of many who were involved in these atrocities and he’s not alone.

http://www.democracynow.org/2003/10/29/tiger_force_a_new_report_uncovers


Carpet bombing in Laos and Cambodia

Fire bombing in Tokyo

Nuclear bombs against Japanese

Nicaragua

El Salvador

The Philippines

Cuba
US official documents that have been recently been declassified show that, between October 1960 and April 1961, the CIA smuggled in 75 tons of explosives into Cuba during 30 clandestine air operations, and infiltrated 45 tons of weapons and explosives during 31 sea incursions. Also during that short seven-month time span, the CIA carried out 110 attacks with dynamite, planted 200 bombs, derailed six trains and burned 150 factories and 800 plantations.

Between 1959 and 1997, the United States carried out 5,780 terrorist actions against Cuba " 804 of them considered as terrorist attacks of significant magnitude, including 78 bombings against the civil population that caused thousands of victims.

Terrorist attacks against Cuba have cost 3,478 lives and have left 2,099 people permanently disabled. Between 1959 and 2003, there were 61 hijackings of planes or boats. Between 1961 and 1996, there were 58 attacks from the sea against 67 economic targets and the population.

The CIA has directed and supported over 4,000 individuals in 299 paramilitary groups. They are responsible for 549 murders and thousands of people wounded.

In 1971, after a biological attack, half a million pigs had to be killed to prevent the spreading of swine fever. In 1981, the introduction of dengue fever caused 344,203 victims killing 158 of whom 101 were children. On July 6th, 1982, 11,400 cases were registered in one day alone.

Most of these aggressions were prepared in Florida by the CIA-trained and financed extreme right wing of Cuban origin.
 

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