Israel Kills 10 in Palestinian Aid Convoy

Quote:

What about the fact that the IDF had already dropped stun grenades and fired their guns prior to boarding?

Wouldnt they have dropped real grenades if they wanted to kill ? Wouldnt they have shot someone first up ? They were attacked for some time before the Israelis fired shots to kill. How badly do you have to hate Israelis to want to kill them with an iron bars and knives when they have automatic weapons ?

Don't worry, it's a long blade, you'll fit.

It's called falling on your own sword, and it seems in your zeal, you're looking for room to fall on it too.

Quote:

Don't worry, it's a long blade, you'll fit.

Your concern is touching.
Perhaps the Israelis agravated the situation by not pulling the ship over earlier and giving them time to fashion weapons whilst working themselves into a lather. They had time to say let the Israelis board and no-one will get hurt but they chose to go with the line that let the Israelis board and we will kill them. How do you think the stun grenades should be thought of ? Retroactively by the first radio call ?

Quote:

It's called falling on your own sword, and it seems in your zeal, you're looking for room to fall on it too.

My zeal is about you choosing the side of the underdog every time so you can feel good about yourself, regardless.
Perhaps you should regard armed Police as provoking weapon assaults.

bullshit that falls out of your head ....Total piss.....Defending them blindly as you are is idiotic.

A fight was not inevitable,

Ionus wrote:

Then it takes a great deal of discipline not to pull out your gun and shoot someone who is stabbing you or beating you with an iron bar or throwing you overboard.

What about the fact that the IDF had already dropped stun grenades and fired their guns prior to boarding?

The case for self defense sides with the people on the ship.

Ionus wrote:

failures art wrote:

What about the fact that the IDF had already dropped stun grenades and fired their guns prior to boarding?

Wouldnt they have dropped real grenades if they wanted to kill ? Wouldnt they have shot someone first up ? They were attacked for some time before the Israelis fired shots to kill. How badly do you have to hate Israelis to want to kill them with an iron bars and knives when they have automatic weapons ?

The Israelis attacked. They can't claim self defense.

Firing off shots and dropping grenades on people only escalated the situation.

Ionus wrote:

failures art wrote:

It's called falling on your own sword, and it seems in your zeal, you're looking for room to fall on it too.

My zeal is about you choosing the side of the underdog every time so you can feel good about yourself, regardless.
Perhaps you should regard armed Police as provoking weapon assaults.

Underdog? If I'm to believe any of the bullshit that falls out of your head, the poor poor IDF was merely defending itself and they were they underdogs for being outnumbered by so many people "lathering" and brandishing such barbaric weapons. Total piss.

The IDF messed up. It's simple. A fight was not inevitable, it was thee product of an over-aggressive assault/raid on the boat. Defending them blindly as you are is idiotic.

Israel to ease Gaza blockade
Updated 28 minutes ago

Israel has faced mounting calls to lift the blockade following its botched raid on an aid flotilla (AFP: Menahem Kahana)

Israel's security cabinet has decided to ease a Gaza land blockade following an international outcry over a deadly raid on an aid flotilla.

The announcement appeared to indicate that Israel would allow international organisations, such as the United Nations, to import previously banned building materials, vital to reconstruction after the December 2008-January 2009 Gaza war.

"It was agreed to liberalise the system by which civilian goods enter Gaza [and] expand the inflow of materials for civilian projects that are under international supervision," an official statement said, without specifying any product list.

The security cabinet, which began its discussions on Wednesday on easing the embargo, noted that "existing security procedures to prevent the inflow of weapons and war material" would continue.

The announcement made no mention of any lifting of Israel's sea blockade of the enclave, run by Hamas Islamists.

Israel faced mounting international calls to ease or lift its Gaza embargo following the killing by Israeli commandos of nine pro-Palestinian Turkish activists during the interception at sea of an an aid convoy on May 31.

Israeli leaders said the troops acted in self defence after being swarmed by activists who attacked them and that the blockade is necessary to prevent arms smuggling to Hamas.

Israel imposed the blockade soon after Hamas, which has rejected Western calls to recognise its right to exist, won a Palestinian legislative election in 2006.

Restrictions were tightened after Hamas seized power in Gaza the following year.

- Reuters

failures art wrote:

Ionus wrote:

Then it takes a great deal of discipline not to pull out your gun and shoot someone who is stabbing you or beating you with an iron bar or throwing you overboard.

What about the fact that the IDF had already dropped stun grenades and fired their guns prior to boarding?

How is that relevant?

It is a virtual certainty that any guns fired at that point would have been the non-lethal paintball guns, not the handguns. But in any case, I don't see why it matters.

If you go to a war zone and intentionally try to run a blockade, there is a fair chance of having soldiers shoot at you.

failures art wrote:

The case for self defense sides with the people on the ship.

That is unlikely. They were smugglers intentionally trying to run a blockade. It is hard to see how they can possibly claim self defense.

failures art wrote:

Ionus wrote:

failures art wrote:

What about the fact that the IDF had already dropped stun grenades and fired their guns prior to boarding?

Wouldnt they have dropped real grenades if they wanted to kill ? Wouldnt they have shot someone first up ? They were attacked for some time before the Israelis fired shots to kill. How badly do you have to hate Israelis to want to kill them with an iron bars and knives when they have automatic weapons ?

The Israelis attacked. They can't claim self defense.

They can claim they were soldiers engaging in a lawful act of war however.

failures art wrote:

Firing off shots and dropping grenades on people only escalated the situation.

I disagree. The situation was escalated when the smugglers tried to evade the blockade.

Having sailors enforce the blockade was a natural consequence of that.

failures art wrote:

Ionus wrote:

failures art wrote:

It's called falling on your own sword, and it seems in your zeal, you're looking for room to fall on it too.

My zeal is about you choosing the side of the underdog every time so you can feel good about yourself, regardless.
Perhaps you should regard armed Police as provoking weapon assaults.

Underdog? If I'm to believe any of the bullshit that falls out of your head, the poor poor IDF was merely defending itself and they were they underdogs for being outnumbered by so many people "lathering" and brandishing such barbaric weapons. Total piss.

It is certainly true that had those soldiers allowed themselves to be overrun by that lynch mob they would have been murdered.

I think you misread Ionus' post however. He was calling the Palestinians the underdog, and was saying that this underdog status is the reason that you side with them. (At least as I read his post.)

failures art wrote:

The IDF messed up. It's simple. A fight was not inevitable, it was thee product of an over-aggressive assault/raid on the boat. Defending them blindly as you are is idiotic.

The fight was the product of the attempt to smuggle contraband past the blockade. The raid on the boat was just a consequence of the smuggling attempt.

The fight was the product of the attempt to smuggle contraband past the blockade. The raid on the boat was just a consequence of the smuggling attempt.

oralloy wrote:

If you go to a war zone and intentionally try to run a blockade, there is a fair chance of having soldiers shoot at you.

And if you storm a vessel in international waters, you're violating piracy laws.

I'd imagine if you board a vessel, the people on board will defend themselves with whatever they have too.

oralloy wrote:

failures art wrote:

The case for self defense sides with the people on the ship.

That is unlikely. They were smugglers intentionally trying to run a blockade. It is hard to see how they can possibly claim self defense.

Keep embarrassing yourself here. The IDF found nothing. They weren't smuggling any weapons.

A
R
T

oralloy wrote:

failures art wrote:

Ionus wrote:

failures art wrote:

What about the fact that the IDF had already dropped stun grenades and fired their guns prior to boarding?

Wouldnt they have dropped real grenades if they wanted to kill ? Wouldnt they have shot someone first up ? They were attacked for some time before the Israelis fired shots to kill. How badly do you have to hate Israelis to want to kill them with an iron bars and knives when they have automatic weapons ?

The Israelis attacked. They can't claim self defense.

They can claim they were soldiers engaging in a lawful act of war however.

They can claim it, but it won't make it true. An act of war certainly, but lawful, hardly.

oralloy wrote:

failures art wrote:

Firing off shots and dropping grenades on people only escalated the situation.

I disagree. The situation was escalated when the smugglers tried to evade the blockade.

The facts prove they weren't smugglers.

oralloy wrote:

failures art wrote:

Ionus wrote:

failures art wrote:

It's called falling on your own sword, and it seems in your zeal, you're looking for room to fall on it too.

My zeal is about you choosing the side of the underdog every time so you can feel good about yourself, regardless.
Perhaps you should regard armed Police as provoking weapon assaults.

Underdog? If I'm to believe any of the bullshit that falls out of your head, the poor poor IDF was merely defending itself and they were they underdogs for being outnumbered by so many people "lathering" and brandishing such barbaric weapons. Total piss.

It is certainly true that had those soldiers allowed themselves to be overrun by that lynch mob they would have been murdered.

Am I supposed to feel sorry for these soldiers?

They created this situation, and they fell on their own sword. Bad ideas with the seed of their own destruction sewn.

oralloy wrote:

I think you misread Ionus' post however. He was calling the Palestinians the underdog, and was saying that this underdog status is the reason that you side with them. (At least as I read his post.)

Who said I side with Palestine? If Ionus and you think this issue is black and white or pick-a-enemy, you're ******* idiots. The truth is that both sides of this conflict make stupid moves. I support Israel's existence, but that doesn't mean that I turn my head when they do unethical things. I condemn any action by either side that harms the two-state solution or further destabilizes the region. This incident was very clearly a **** up on Israel's behalf. It's indefensible.

oralloy wrote:

failures art wrote:

The IDF messed up. It's simple. A fight was not inevitable, it was thee product of an over-aggressive assault/raid on the boat. Defending them blindly as you are is idiotic.

The fight was the product of the attempt to smuggle contraband past the blockade. The raid on the boat was just a consequence of the smuggling attempt.

You've obviously no actual understanding of this situation since you've now referred to them as smugglers three times. I was perhaps mistaken, when I assumed you wished to be taken seriously.

A
R
T

Oralloy - Cement, eh?

That's the best you can do?

You're pathetic.

You're not entitled to your own facts.

You've offered nothing relevant to contribute here.

A
R
T

Pointing out the truth is usually what I do best.