May I see your papers, citizen?

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

Sugar, I quoted someone here. I never distort facts.

You distorted the facts, because this law doesn't permit a policeman to question someone about immigration status just because he has an accent. People may only be questioned during a different, valid investigation.

2 Replies

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

I think the righties are angry that I posted the link to the fact that these drug cartels are probably being run by an American citizen.

Far from being angry, I couldn't give a flying crap, since it is utterly irrelevant to the merits of the new Arizona law.

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

Ah, yes, another right winger unable to follow a conversation. Only a Native American has a right to say what you said.

0 Replies

@Brandon9000,

It was a quote! Someone else here said that police will question those with accents. Follow the line of discussion!

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

Hey, you folks on the right constantly paint Mexicans as drug dealers . . . in fact . . . the impetus for this law was to control illegal drugs. That an American in Texas is at least one of the enormously powerful druglords behind the distribution of heroin in this country IS COMPLETELY RELEVANT TO THE AZ LAW.

1 Reply

http://www.foxnews.com/images/root_images/brewerobama_20100521_060802.jpg

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

Brandon9000 wrote:

People may only be questioned during a different, valid investigation.

But police can have "valid" investigations almost at will. It's basically your word against the police on a traffic stop. As long as the police say they were stopping you in good faith the investigation is valid. I think the majority of Arizona police are good folk, but this is completely open to abuse if someone is looking for an excuse to harass US citizens with brown skin and with the penalties that accrue to local law enforcement if it appears they aren't enforcing the law, there is a strong incentive for otherwise decent policemen to pursue brown skin folk as well.

3 Replies

@H2O MAN,

H2O MAN wrote:

THE VIDEO

0 Replies

@Brandon9000,

No, your response was completely off topic for the conversation we were having. You have successfully derailed the conversation, though, so good for you.

FWIW, we'd covered the "point" you made already, which was nothing more than some petulant whine on your part.

2 Replies

@engineer,

Damn near every law is open to abuse by someone. Why not give it a chance and if there is abuse than we will do something about it. You are assuming that most cops are raciest, but I know many and they are like you and me. Just trying to do the job they were hired for.

1 Reply

@rabel22,

Few laws invite such wide-scale abuse as this one does, though.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

That may be true in Germany, but it isnt true here.
Police officers here are not required to show ID cards when asked, especially if they are working undercover.

It may not only be true but it is true.
The reason is quite simple: how could you accuse a police officer if you don't know his name? (And, of course, there's a second, very practical reason, too: such eliminates false police officers doing "their job".)

I do know that in the USA police officers have a very different position qua officio.

0 Replies

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

That may be true in Germany, but it isnt true here.
Police officers here are not required to show ID cards when asked, especially if they are working undercover.

But the police officers covered by this law would be in uniform and not undercover. I would be surprised if they didn't have to carry identification, and didn't have to present it on request.

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

Brandon9000 wrote:

Furthermore, when the person's other identification is examined, such as driver's licenses or other items that supply a name, it may be possible to check with some database and determine that the individual wasn't born here and wasn't naturalized as a citizen, or that his story about his birth is phoney.

Although it's true that the police can determine my immigration status by running my driver's license, I don't expect the Arizona law to work that way. The original version of Senate Bill 1070 instructed police to check your driver's license first, and to just assume you're in the country legally if you present one. I admit, though, that this clause is not in the version the Senate passed into law.

Brandon9000 wrote:

Even if examining the person's ID is of no value, it isn't improper to ask for it.

I would have said that since we're expected to pay taxes for police work, it would be improper for that work to be of value. But fine---if the distinction between "improper" and "worthless" is important to you, I'll settle for "worthless".

2 Replies

@engineer,

engineer wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

People may only be questioned during a different, valid investigation.

But police can have "valid" investigations almost at will. It's basically your word against the police on a traffic stop. As long as the police say they were stopping you in good faith the investigation is valid

And traffic stops are hard cases compared to vague charges such as jaywalking. How do you prove you weren't jaywalking when the police says you did?

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

I think you're saying that an alien in Germany is not required to carry identification papers. This isn't the case in the US.

Do you find it somehow troublesome that the US requires aliens to carry ID while within its borders?

Makes sense to me, and I have always assumed that I need to have identification with me at all times when I am in a foreign country. As you've noted, even if it isn't mandatory, it's sensible.

I've read the Arizona law and I don't believe it allows the police to randomly stop individuals and ask to see their papers, and if they do ask someone for their papers it must in connection with an issue unrelated to simply their immigration status. Racial profiling is expressly prohibited.

Now we all know that any law can be abused by the authorities and this one is no exception, but I think it's rather insulting to the law enforment officers of Arizona (many of them who are latino themselves) to assume, out of the gate, that they will abuse this particular law.

Irrespective of any law, I'm not going to have a problem with a policeman who politely asks to see my identification. I am going to assume that he or she has a valid reason for doing so.

If I don't happen to have any ID on me and the police harrass or arrest me for that reason alone or for some obviously trumped up suspicion, I will have a problem and I will seek appropriate redress. America is not a police state and while they certainly are not perfect, there are provisions in our laws to prevent and address abuse of authority.

Since any law can be abused, the issue should be if the law is likely to be abused, and, more importantly, what will happen if and when it is.

The former we can only draw opinions around, but it seems to me to be properly crafted and I have no reason to believe the Arizona police are any less dedicated to upholding the law than their colleagues in the rest of the country.

The latter requires us to wait and see, and we can be sure that there will be no shortage of watchful eyes trained on Arizona, looking to spot abuse...even when it doesn't actually occur.

Arizona may now be the safest place in America for illegal aliens.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Few laws invite such wide-scale abuse as this one does, though.

How so?

This is a bold and I believe rash statement, based on prejudice.

This law has, at all levels, been mischaracterized and, frankly, distorted by people with a particular political point of view that is historically sympathetic to illegal aliens.

Once the concern about racial profiling was raised, the bill was quickly amended to prohibit any such practice.

It mirrors federal immigration law.

It may prove to be unconstitutional, but not on the basis of violating individual rights, but because the right to pass immigration laws rests solely with the federal government.

0 Replies

@Thomas,

I dont know where you guys live but here when the police pull you over for whatever they take your drivers lisc. and check you out. Nothing wrong with them doing thier job. I see an a bunch of paranoid individuals letting fear rule them. Give the law a chance.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

But the police officers covered by this law would be in uniform and not undercover. I would be surprised if they didn't have to carry identification, and didn't have to present it on request.

I've worked a couple of days and (more interesting:) nights with some undercover police officers, both of the 'normal' as well as of the state police.
They, especially, show their ID-cards when interrogating someone.

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

Now we all know that any law can be abused by the authorities and this one is no exception, but I think it's rather insulting to the law enforment officers of Arizona (many of them who are latino themselves) to assume, out of the gate, that they will abuse this particular law.

Some Latino police officers are strongly opposed to the law. Given that the great majority of Hispanic Americans in Arizona are strongly opposed to the law this is not surprising.

Quote:

The officer has worked to establish relationships and trust with the majority of Hispanic residents in the central Phoenix Garfield neighborhood.

That trust began to crack days after Gov. Jan Brewer signed into law Senate Bill 1070, which makes it a state crime to be in the country illegally and requires police to check the immigration status of anyone they have reasonable suspicion of being in the country illegally. It goes into effect July 29.

Salgado filed suit last month in U.S. District Court against Brewer and Phoenix. In his claim, he says that to enforce the law, he would violate the rights of Hispanics and be forced to expend his own time and resources to familiarize himself with the law's requirements.

"The problem is this is an immigration-law issue, and for me to enforce immigration is going to be difficult because of training," Salgado said in an interview with The Arizona Republic. "It's going to take away from me concentrating on more serious crimes."

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2010/05/15/20100515arizona-immigration-law-officer-lawsuits.html

1 Reply

May I see your papers, citizen?

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