The opening premise of this thread is itself flawed.
The United States, like every other modern country, requires that resident aliens have documentation, whether a visa, a work permit, or something like our green card, certifying the legality of their presence in the country. Indeed many, not all, countries use national identity documents for all residents. All, Mexico and Germany included, make unauthorizaed residence a legal offense.
United States (FederaL) law requires that resident aliens carry their visas or green cards with them, and permits Federal law enforcement agents to inquire and check them at will, with or without probable cause or suspicion that another crime or offense is involved.
The issue is that, for complex political reasons, these laws have not been enforced for a long time. Arizona has merely made portions of the existing Federal law enforcable by state officials, but under far more restrictive (to the police) conditions than currently exist under FederaL law. The issue at hand is not the content of the law, but rather the politically motivated refusal of the FederaL government to enforce its own existing and long-standing law.
Mexican President, Calderon's criticism of Arizona lay during his speech to our Congress was cynical in the extreme, in that the Arizona law he criticized is itself far less rigorous than existing Mexican law with respect to illegal aleins.
We either have rule of law or we don't. The sele4ctive and politically motiated unequal enforcement of the law is itself a cynicaL threat to the whole structure of law and the democratic process by which it is enacted.
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Mexican President, Calderon's criticism of Arizona lay during his speech to our Congress was cynical in the extreme, in that the Arizona law he criticized is itself far less rigorous than existing Mexican law with respect to illegal aleins.
According to Calderon, they have within the last year changed that law, to make it a small civil penalty and not a felony offense.
Cycloptichorn
@Cycloptichorn,
This is a stupid right-wing talking point considering that Mexico offers undocumented immigrants an amnesty.
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
No, your response was completely off topic for the conversation we were having. You have successfully derailed the conversation, though, so good for you.
FWIW, we'd covered the "point" you made already, which was nothing more than some petulant whine on your part.
Brandon is a good guy to ignore.
@Walter Hinteler,
But if they are workin g undercover, do they show their ID to anyone that asks?
If they do, that ruins the undercover work, and could get a police officer killed.
@georgeob1,
Quote:United States (FederaL) law requires that resident aliens carry their visas or green cards with them, and permits Federal law enforcement agents to inquire and check them at will, with or without probable cause or suspicion that another crime or offense is involved
Actually, the federal law allows ANY police officer or law enforcement agent to ask to see a green card and to check them.
It is not limited to federal agents alone.
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:The opening premise of this thread is itself flawed.
I fail to see how it is flawed.
American citizens are not required to carry proof of citizenship with them. They are not even required to carry identification. In Texas, we aren't even required to
have identification.
The AZ law will certainly cause some US citizens to be detained because they do not have proof of citizenship on their persons.
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
But if they are workin g undercover, do they show their ID to anyone that asks?
If they do, that ruins the undercover work, and could get a police officer killed.
Well, I've never asked someone for his ID-card (besides, when I had the legal authority to do so).
And I never would give someone information about me if she/he couldn't prove that she/he had the right to ask for them.
I mean, undercover here in Germany is somehow the very same as elsewhere.
Undercover policemen (and I'm here not speaking of other personals from "undercover agencies") do show their ID-card of course only when e.g. arresting someone, or asking someone for her/his identification.
If they wouldn't show their ID, everyone would ignore them.
Quote:NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Arizona responded to the Los Angeles city council boycott with a suggestion of its own: cutting power to the nation's second-largest city.
The Arizona Corporation Commission, the overseer for the state's electric and water utilities, has offered to pull the plug on Los Angeles, noting that Arizona's power plants supply electricity to 25% of the city.
"If an economic boycott is truly what you desire, I will be happy to encourage Arizona utilities to renegotiate your power agreements so Los Angeles no longer receives power from Arizona-based generation," wrote Arizona Corporation Commissioner Gary Pierce to Los Angeles Mayor Antonio R. Villaraigosa, in a May 18 letter.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/20/news/economy/arizona_los_angeles_boycott/index.htm?hpt=T2
Good idea, play hard ball with those arrogant political correctness gangsters. I am so sick of Americans letting themselves be pushed around by the PC Police, it is refreshing to see some push back from the Citizens of Arizona. These last few months have improved my opinion of Arizonans tremendously.
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
The opening premise of this thread is itself flawed.
As the title of the thread mentions, this is about
citizens being harassed and asked to show papers (at least that is how I see it.) The entire burden of this new law is felt only by a minority part of the population. If all citizens bear the same burden, no problem. Of course the population will howl when caucasian grandmas who forgot their licenses are hauled to jail on suspected immigration violations, but if the citizens of Arizona want it, I guess I'm ok with that. I'm not ok with police going after brown US citizens while letting white or black ones pass.
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Quote:NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Arizona responded to the Los Angeles city council boycott with a suggestion of its own: cutting power to the nation's second-largest city.
The Arizona Corporation Commission, the overseer for the state's electric and water utilities, has offered to pull the plug on Los Angeles, noting that Arizona's power plants supply electricity to 25% of the city.
"If an economic boycott is truly what you desire, I will be happy to encourage Arizona utilities to renegotiate your power agreements so Los Angeles no longer receives power from Arizona-based generation," wrote Arizona Corporation Commissioner Gary Pierce to Los Angeles Mayor Antonio R. Villaraigosa, in a May 18 letter.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/20/news/economy/arizona_los_angeles_boycott/index.htm?hpt=T2
Good idea, play hard ball with those arrogant political correctness gangsters. I am so sick of Americans letting themselves be pushed around by the PC Police, it is refreshing to see some push back from the Citizens of Arizona. These last few months have improved my opinion of Arizonans tremendously.
You are in favor of the state government directing public companies not to sell to certain customers? Even L.A. didn't go that far, only directing city business away from Az. Not very free market of you. And not very likely to work since power is fungible once in the grid.
@engineer,
Quote:You are in favor of the state government directing public companies not to sell to certain customers? Even L.A. didn't go that far, only directing city business away from Az. Not very free market of you. And not very likely to work since power is fungible once in the grid
if you look you will see that LA said that they wanted to cut all dealings, but that 80% of what they do with Arizona was not "feasible" to cut. I think that it is very OK for Arizona to say "back at you". I dont want government severing private contracts at all, but once LA advocated doing so I think that Arizona has every right to respond in kind.
I dont believe in the victim culture or in being a victim, if somebody throws a punch at me they are going to get violence back. I would expect no less of Arizona.
@hawkeye10,
Quote:I dont believe in the victim culture or in being a victim, if somebody throws a punch at me they are going to get violence back
This explains the boycott.
@ebrown p,
Quote:This explains the boycott.
And in this thread I said that people have the right to boycott. I dont think that Arizona is going to care but if it makes you feel better then have at it.
Just understand that likewise Arizona and those who support Arizona have the right to boycott you and your supporters as well.
@hawkeye10,
I think with the millions of dollars already lost to canceled conventions (including ironically being rejected by the Republican National Convention), combined with being the butt of national jokes.
I do think this is going to hurt them, and I am quite happy about that.
I agree with your point about the "right" to boycott or counter-boycott... but the idea that they aren't going to be hurt much more then anyone else is a bit naive.
Do you know why they celebrate Martin Luther King day in Arizona?
@hawkeye10,
Quote:You are in favor of the state government directing public companies not to sell to certain customers? Even L.A. didn't go that far, only directing city business away from Az. Not very free market of you. And not very likely to work since power is fungible once in the grid
hawkeye10 wrote:if you look you will see that LA said that they wanted to cut all dealings, but that 80% of what they do with Arizona was not "feasible" to cut. I think that it is very OK for Arizona to say "back at you". I dont want government severing private contracts at all, but once LA advocated doing so I think that Arizona has every right to respond in kind.
I dont believe in the victim culture or in being a victim, if somebody throws a punch at me they are going to get violence back. I would expect no less of Arizona.
Well said, Hawkeye; it feels strange having a socialist agree with me. That does not happen ofen.
David
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Quote:This explains the boycott.
And in this thread I said that people have the right to boycott. I dont think that Arizona is going to care but if it makes you feel better then have at it.
The boycott has already cost them dozens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars - and the damage will continue to spread. At this rate the All-star game will be moved and I wouldn't be surprised if the NCAA gets in on the action too.
Quote:Just understand that likewise Arizona and those who support Arizona have the right to boycott you and your supporters as well.
What, exactly, are you going to boycott?
As Ebrown said - bring it on.
Cycloptichorn
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:As Ebrown said - bring it on
Let's GO!
Quote:May 21, 2010 (MMD Newswire) -- One of America's national organizations fighting against illegal immigration is announcing that 17 states are now filing versions of Arizona's SB 1070 law which is designed to help local police enforce America's existing immigration laws.
Numerous national and local polls indicated that 60-81% of Americans support local police enforcing immigration laws.
"Our national network of activists have been working overtime trying to help the state of Arizona and the brave Arizonans who have passed this bill," said William Gheen, President of Americans for Legal Immigration PAC. "Arizona no longer stands alone and we have now documented state lawmakers filing, or announcing they will file, versions of the Arizona bill in seventeen states! We will not stop until all states are protected from invasion as required by the US Constitution."
ALIPAC has documented the following 17 states are following Arizona's lead in response to citizen pressure.
ARKANSAS, IDAHO, INDIANA, MARYLAND, MICHIGAN, MINNESOTA, MISSOURI, NEBRASKA, NEVADA, NEW JERSEY, OHIO, OKLAHOMA, PENNSYLVANIA, RHODE ISLAND, SOUTH CAROLINA, TEXAS, UTAH
http://www.mmdnewswire.com/arizona-immigration-bill-8558.html
I am not an Arizona Citizen, and no longer a resident, so I dont get a say in what they do. But I fully support their right to insist that national immigration law is enforced.
