May I see your papers, citizen?

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
What do you think about the concept of equal loyalty to everyone, whether they're your fellow citizens or not?
You certainly need a Girl friend/boy friend to set you straight. Loyalty must begin at home.

Why?

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Quote:

Why?

because we are not Borg, our needs/wants come into conflict with others. You need to decide who to support unless you are going to support no one. If you support no one then no one has any use for you, good luck getting the resources to live if you go that way. If you are going to choose sides you better choose those you care the most about. If you help those you dont care about over those you love then you are pathological, this would be a manifestation of self hate, you making your loved ones pay for your illness. In that case you should elect to get treatment.

1 Reply

@ebrown p,

Gay marriages and women voting don't hurt the country. Illegals are killing us.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Advocate wrote:

It seems as though all your loyalty and empathy is for the illegal alien, with none for your fellow citizen or your country.

What do you think about the concept of equal loyalty to everyone, whether they're your fellow citizens or not?

I don't feel very loyal to people who come to our country illegally (breaking our laws), take jobs from citizens, and, in general, drag our country down.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

I don't feel very loyal to people who come to our country illegally (breaking our laws), take jobs from citizens, and, in general, drag our country down.

Well, I guess we've identified our points of disagreement then.

(1) I don't really care about legal residence any more than I would have cared in the fifties about sitting in legal sitting on segregated buses.

(2) I disagree that immigrants "take" jobs from locals in any meaningful sense of the word "take". Competing is not taking.

(3) I disagree that immigrants, including illegal immigrants, take the USA down.

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@Advocate,

Quote:

Illegals are killing us.

I am not dead yet, are you?

In my opinion, bigotry is much more of a threat to American then illegal immigration.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye wrote:

You need to decide who to support unless you are going to support no one.

That doesn't mean I need to distinguish between nationalities though. As an egoist, I can support those who support me, whatever their nationality. As an altruist, I can support those who need my support the most---whatever their nationality. And as a real person, incorporating a little of both, I can do do some of both. Wherever I choose to fall within the egoism--altruism continuum, there's no compelling reason for nationalities to enter the picture. And that's the way I prefer it.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Quote:

That doesn't mean I need to distinguish between nationalities though. As an egoist, I can support those who support me, whatever their nationality

Nonsense, it is those closest to you who are in a position to help you the most. So long as we operate this planet on the current government scheme it is the people of your nation who are in a position to help you. If you want their help in the future you should working to take care of those close to you, not looking far and wide for the most sorry people to invest your energy in. As an ego driven person surely you can figure out which side of your bread is buttered. Given your views on immigration, maybe not.

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ABC reports that an American may be behind a Mexican drug cartel . . . gee. . . then there is no reason to persecute those brown-skinned folks, is there? Nah! The right always finds a reason to hate!

See this link:

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/edgar-valdez-la-barbie-control-mexican-drug-cartel/story?id=10688794&nwltr=WN_topstory_hed

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye wrote:

Nonsense, it is those closest to you who are in a position to help you the most.

Even on that reasoning, your conlcusion does not follow. Some of the people closest to me have German passports. Others have passports from Spain, Switzerland, Findland, France---even America. There still is no reason to prefer people of my own nationality.

But no matter. This thread is about public policy, not personal relation. The conflicting interests on which we are taking sides (or not) are mostly between compatriots we don't know and foreigners we don't know. Neither side is in the closest-to-me category.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Your situation is somewhat abnormal, what I don't get is how it escapes you that Americans have every rational/reasonable reason to support Americans over those who want to come here. Even if you could successfully make the case that America is better off if we get a lot of new people inside the country, and while this is argued I dont think the case is convincing, the fact remains that most Americans dont want illegals and I am more interested in supporting my fellow americans (right or wrong) than I am in supporting Mexicans. Americans can help me one day, mexicans can not. AMericans can vote to support what I want, Illegals can not, and the mexicans in mexico dont care what I want any more than I care what they want.

Self interest dictates that I don't support illegal immigration. If we need more people convince me and maybe I will support more legal immigration, but illegal immigration should still go away. Also, I am much more interested in having the right process going forwards than I am in those who are here now. They are illegal, if they are not happy then they should go home. My heart does not bleed for them, I am not much interested in what they want or what they think they deserve. They knew the score when they decided to come here, I am under no obligation to see that their law breaking works out for them.

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@Thomas,

Yes, I have a problem with that, too. Check my original post, where I say I don't like our police being used this way.

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@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

Gay marriages and women voting don't hurt the country. Illegals are killing us.

Care to back that up with any actual statistics? Seems to me, that illegal aliens are a huge part of the U.S. workforce.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Your situation is somewhat abnormal, what I don't get is how it escapes you that Americans have every rational/reasonable reason to support Americans over those who want to come here.

Well, if you're going to take the Adam Smith approach, then I'd say that greater competition for unskilled labor benefits me more than supporting Americans uber alles.

If I were competing for those unskilled labor jobs, I might feel differently.

2 Replies

@DrewDad,

Quote:

If I were competing for those unskilled labor jobs, I might feel differently.

Considering that your choice is between installing living wage jobs, increasing unpopular with many government wealth redistribution, and revolution.......you should care about how illegal immigration drives down the wage scale for the lower classes. Considering that this is a sop for corporations at the expense of the workers, that drives down personal income taxes revenue and sales tax revenue that we don't make back in corporate income taxes because corporations have the political power to avoid taxes you should care anyways. Greece should be a lesson to America that the illegal economy must be brought under control in order to manage the massive government debt load we are carrying.

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Even serious opposition to the Arizona law can only be based on what it might lead to rather than what it actually permits or prohibits.

It's quite telling, and far too typical, that our Attorney General, and our Director of Homeland Security who have both publicly denounced the law, have not read it.

The State Dept Spokesman who came out in public to defend the Assistant Secretary of State who apologized to the Chinese for the law, admitted he hadn't read it.

I seriously doubt that either the LA city council or the school superintendant who prohibited his HS girl's basketball team from competing in a tournament in Arizona actually read the law.

The over-reaction to this law by people who find outrage intoxicating or who wish to declare their humanitarian bona fides, has been astounding.

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

The over-reaction to this law by people who find outrage intoxicating or who wish to declare their humanitarian bona fides, has been astounding.

then you have not been paying attention. These kinds of bullying techniques have long been the primary weapon of the self appointed Political Correctness Police. Only our laws and the fact that a large chunk of the populous do not support this action prevent them from being our version of the Sharia police.

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@engineer,

engineer wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

On April 30, the Arizona legislature passed, and Governor Brewer signed, House Bill 2162, which modified the law that had been signed a week earlier, with the amended text stating that "prosecutors would not investigate complaints based on race, color or national origin." People in Arizona can only be questioned about immigration in connection with some other business.

This is a fig leaf. There is no way to enforce this law without profiling based on color. I'd be fine in Arizona arrested every single person who could not prove citizenship when stopped for any violation, but we know that if you have white skin, no one's going to even ask you for your papers much less take you in if you don't have ID on you.

The law, since the amendment, only permits people to be asked for ID if they are being questioned about some different legal matter. Stop saying that anyone can be asked for papers at any time, because it isn't true. Any policeman who does that is violating the law.

Now, as for who gets questioned about citizenship in the course of some different investigation, of course more suspicion will fall on people who look hispanic, since there are 12 million illegals from Mexico in the country. What would you expect? That isn't the fault of the cops, and it isn't the fault of the people who want the immigration laws enforced. It's the fault of 12 million people who entered the country illegally. Every country has immigration laws, and enforces them, and has a perfect right to do so.

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@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

I actually have a problem with the fact that most of the righties are all in favor of "people with accents" being questioned but are AGAINST the retention of sex offenders who are already imprisoned.

As usual, you're distorting the facts. Under the Arizona law, since the passage of House Bill 2162, people with accents cannot be questioned for that reason alone. The law only permits investigation of citizenship during the investigation of a different legal matter. Every country enforces its immigration laws, and we have more right to than most, since we now have 12 million illegals in the country.

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

In the first part of the season finale for the science fiction program, "Fringe," the Fringe task force for the alternate universe is depicted as being part of the Department of Defense and asks members of the public for a "show me," which appears to be a national identity card. In fact, when an intruder from our universe is searched, and his driver's license is found, the other universe task force says, "That's not a show me."

Now, to answer the righties, I will ask a question: you do know that science fiction is primarily a means of casting a light upon our own society, a way of making social commentary, don't you?

The answer by the righties: What an utter crock. This situation is the fault of people like you who blocked every lesser attempt to enforce the immigration laws until now we have 12 million illegals living here. Like every country in the world, we have the right to enforce immigration laws. No one has a right of any kind to enter the country illegally or to be free from investigation if they do.

1 Reply

May I see your papers, citizen?

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