51
   

May I see your papers, citizen?

 
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 12:41 pm
@mysteryman,
Those who are descended from the indigenous people are the only non-immigrants. While today there are black people who are immigrants, many blacks can trace their ancestors to slaves. As the slave were brought here against their will, they were not, strictly speaking, immigrants. All white people are here as immigrants. That is a fact and not racism.

You have just illustrated why right wingers are impossible parties to discussions. You make flip remarks and your hold on facts is tenuous.
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 12:42 pm
@Thomas,
Thank you for setting him straight.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 12:47 pm
@plainoldme,
Quote:

It is a very well known, often discussed quote and engineer gave you the whole story.
actually, it was not a well known quote. Engineer wrote the quote, and tried to piggy back it on a quote from WW2, acting like he is talking about the same thing. He is not. Hitler came a got legal residents and killed them, we are going to get those in our country illegally,and send them home. Equating the two is not credible.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 12:51 pm
@hawkeye10,
The WWII quote is very well known. I didn't quote it in my paraphrase because I figured most here would pick up the reference. Equating the two is relevant because the Arizona law infringes on the rights of a minority group of citizens who appear Mexican. If you don't defend their rights, who will defend yours when you are the group singled out for special attention?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 01:06 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
If you don't defend their rights, who will defend yours when you are the group singled out for special attention?
First I don't think that anyone has the right to not be asked for documents regarding their citizenship. I don't have any problem with a national ID and cops being able to ask for it at any time for any reason. Secondly, I think that Americans of Mexican decent should suck it up, for the good of the nation, for a short time until we can get the illegals out and stop new ones from coming it. This should only take a few years, it is not an onerous burden
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 01:06 pm
@hawkeye10,
Gee . . . I must be imagining that I heard it as part of homilies and civic addresses and discussions. Thanks for correcting what I heard when you were not around.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 01:18 pm
@plainoldme,
'First the government came for people who looked like Mexicans and I said nothing because I don't"

This gets zero hits on google. You might have heard it somewhere but it is certainly not a well known quote.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 01:21 pm
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2010/04/28/hate-group-lawyer-drafted-arizona-anti-immigrant-law/

Quote:
Hate Group Lawyer Drafted Arizona’s Anti-Immigrant Law
Posted in Anti-Immigrant by Heidi Beirich on April 28, 2010

Print This Post Print This Post

Arizona’s controversial anti-immigrant law was written by a lawyer at the legal arm of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), which the Southern Poverty Law Center has listed as an anti-immigrant hate group since 2007. The law, a recipe for racial profiling, would make the failure to carry immigration documents a crime and give the police broad power to detain anyone suspected of being in the country illegally. (See statement by SPLC Legal Director Mary Bauer.)

Kris Kobach, the author of the Arizona law and a lawyer at FAIR’s Immigration Reform Law Institute, has been the prime mover behind numerous ordinances that seek to punish those who aid and abet “illegal aliens,” including laws adopted in Farmer’s Branch, Texas, and Hazelton, Pa.

The laws have not done well and have cost some localities immense sums of money to defend. Recently, the city of Albertville, Ala., refused to work with Kobach on just such an ordinance, reportedly because of the high legal costs incurred by these other communities.

Before joining FAIR, Kobach served as U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft’s top immigration adviser. He then moved on to take charge of Department of Justice efforts to tighten border security after the 9/11 attacks. There, he developed a program " the National Security Entry-Exit Registration System " that called for close monitoring of men from Arab and Muslim nations, even legal U.S. residents. The program collapsed due to complaints of racial profiling and discrimination.

Given Kobach’s history with racial profiling, it is particularly alarming that he was tapped by Maricopa County, Ariz., Sheriff Joe Arpaio in February to train his officers. A federal grand jury investigation is under way amid a slew of complaints that Arpaio used racial profiling techniques to round up suspected undocumented immigrants. The grand jury is also reportedly looking at whether Arpaio used his office to target political opponents.

FAIR’s poison is now spreading. Legislation similar to Arizona’s has been introduced in Texas, and six other states are considering doing so.

It’s not surprising to find a group like FAIR behind this repugnant law. FAIR has an extensive track record of racism and bigotry. The group, for example, has accepted $1.2 million from the racist Pioneer Fund, a foundation established to promote the genes of white colonials and fund studies of race, intelligence and genetics. FAIR has employed key staffers who have also joined white supremacist groups; it has board members who write regularly for hate publications; it promotes racist conspiracy theories about Latino immigrants; and it has produced television programming featuring white nationalists.

FAIR has been dominated for much of its life by its racist founder and current board member, John Tanton, who has written that “for European-American society and culture to persist requires a European-American majority, and a clear one at that.” Tanton’s role model for FAIR is John Trevor Sr., founder of the racist American Coalition of Patriotic Societies and a key architect of the racially restrictive Immigration Act of 1924. Trevor also distributed pro-Nazi propaganda and warned shrilly of “diabolical Jewish control” of America. Tanton once said Trevor should serve as FAIR’s “guidepost to what we must follow again this time.”

FAIR’s president, Dan Stein, has warned that immigrants are engaged in “competitive breeding” aimed at diminishing white power. He led efforts to win funding from the Pioneer Fund, saying in 1993 that his “job [was] to get every dime of Pioneer’s money.” Stein also served as editorial adviser to Tanton’s hate journal, The Social Contract, at a time when it ran its ugliest edition ever, “Europhobia: The Hostility Toward European-Descended Americans.” The issue’s lead article argued that multiculturalism was replacing “successful Euro-American culture” with “dysfunctional Third World cultures.” Stein has declined to offer any criticism of FAIR’s founder, instead characterizing Tanton last September as a “Renaissance man.”

The principal sponsor of the Arizona law, state Sen. Russell Pearce, has his own history of hate. In 2006, Pearce forwarded an email to his supporters from the neo-Nazi National Alliance titled “Who Rules America?” The article criticized the media for promoting multiculturalism and racial equality, and for presenting the Holocaust as fact. More recently, Pearce has been photographed hugging J.T. Ready, a Phoenix-area resident who is a member of the neo-Nazi National Socialist Movement.


Let's not kid ourselves and pretend that anti-Hispanic sentiment isn't the focus of this bill. Of course it is. You certainly don't see these guys crusading in NY or on the Canadian border to keep our all the white-skinned folks.

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 01:29 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Arizona’s controversial anti-immigrant law was written by a lawyer at the legal arm of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), which the Southern Poverty Law Center has listed as an anti-immigrant hate group since 2007
there has been some criticism of FAIR but they are mostly considered to be above board. Also, their beliefs are were a great many Americans are...not only are they not fringe but they are close to the center on the immigration question. The SPLC has credibility problems on their own, you should take anything they say with a grain of salt.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 01:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

It is a very well known, often discussed quote and engineer gave you the whole story.
hawkeye10 wrote:
. . . we are going to get those in our country illegally, and send them home. . .
U know, Hawkeye, the problem is that after we "send them home"
thay turn right around and sneak back in,
as if we had done nothing at all; thay UNdo our deportations.


In order for this to be effective,
we NEED to be successfully DISSUASIVE of recidivism.

Maybe if we strip them, tar them and feather them,
if that happens to them ofen enuf, thay will lose interest in returning.

Another possibility is deporting them
not back to MEXICO near the fence,
but somewhere much more distant
behind 1000s of miles of water.
I dunno exactly where, yet.

Maybe we coud negotiate dumping them at
the southern tip of South America.
That 's not behind a lot of water,
but at least its still a hindrance
and presumably, we 'd not see them again for a while.

I wonder what Mr. Brown thinks about that.


0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 01:37 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Let's not kid ourselves and pretend that anti-Hispanic sentiment isn't the focus of this bill. Of course it is. You certainly don't see these guys crusading in NY or on the Canadian border to keep our all the white-skinned folks


You know, just as I dont care much who is making a statement because what I care about is separating truth from fiction, I don't care who pushes particular laws I only care about whether it is a good law or a bad law. The authors of the Arizona Law could be scum and it would not matter much to me.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 01:41 pm
Crime is so bad in Juarez that its mayor moved his family to El Paso, TX. Due to drugs, the crime in Juarez and other border areas is horrific and threatens to spread to the USA. AZ doesn't want to see its cities ruined by crime and is doing what is necessary to keep illegals and their crime out of the state. I take my hat off to her.


Due to threats, Juárez mayor in El Paso
By Diana Washington Valdez / El Paso Times
Posted: 02/24/2009 12:00:00 AM MST


EL PASO -- Police are investigating threats against Juárez Mayor Jose Reyes Ferriz, who moved his family to El Paso for safety, El Paso police Detective Carlos Carrillo said Monday.

"We received information that the Juárez mayor lives in El Paso, and that possibly they were going to come to El Paso to get him," Carrillo said. "He has not asked us for our help, but it's our duty to protect any resident of our city who may be under threat."

Juárez police said written threats against Reyes Ferriz and his family were left in different parts of Juárez after the police chief, Roberto Orduña Cruz, resigned Friday. The threats were written on the kind of banners and posters that the Juárez drug cartel has used to send messages to police and others.

Meanwhile, Mexican authorities were unraveling a shooting Sunday in Chihuahua City that killed one of Chihuahua Gov. Jose Reyes Baeza Terraza's bodyguards.

Alejandro Chaparro Coronel died while defending another state agent in a convoy. He was a commander who served on the Chihuahua state police force for 11 years.

The assailants wounded two other bodyguards, both also members of the state police.
Mexican officials said police returned fire and wounded one suspect, Eduardo Hernandez Valdez, 36. He served in the Mexican army from 2001 to 2003.

The Chihuahua governor, who drove his own vehicle with the bodyguards behind him, said earlier he did not know whether the attack targeted him or stemmed from an unrelated dispute between his bodyguards and the armed suspects.

"We cannot speculate and will comment only about what we know," the governor said.

Chihuahua state officials said they had indications that the shooting was an isolated case stemming from a disagreement between the governor's bodyguards and one of the suspects.

Officials said the bodyguards stopped one suspect's vehicle because they thought it was following the convoy. Then a second vehicle approached, from which two armed men exited and started firing at the bodyguards.

The suspects' vehicles, which were stolen, were found burned outside Chihuahua City.

Both the Juárez mayor and Chihuahua governor belong to the Institutional Revolutionary Party (PRI).

Hector Garcia, the federal attorney general's regional director in Chihuahua state, said at a Monday news conference that the government will investigate any federal violations in connection with Sunday's shooting.

Garcia, who is serving his second tour in Juárez, gained notoriety in 2003 when he claimed publicly that the Juárez drug cartel had been dismantled and no longer existed.

Juárez city official Guillermo Dowell said the violence in Juárez and Chihuahua state is comparable to what occurred in Ireland and Iraq, "where people were killed not because of what they did or failed to do, but to plant terror in a city and its authorities."

He said Reyes Ferriz remained committed to fighting back with a clean and competent police force.

"The mayor's position is that the city police have to serve the public and not some organized criminal band, and he will continue to clean up the police force in a process he began since the first moments of his administration," Dowell said.

Violence against high-ranking politicians in Mexico is not new. In 2001, Patricio Martinez Garcia, then the Chihuahua state governor, survived an assassination attempt by the Juárez drug cartel and a corrupt policewoman.

FBI agents in El Paso had warned him about the cartel's plans. A Chihuahua state policewoman was charged and imprisoned in the plot.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 01:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
This is the well known quote:

Quote:
Martin Niemoeller, a German Evangelical Lutheran pastor, was imprisoned for eight years by the Nazi regime. He spoke of the days in the 1930's when Hitler was coming to power:

"First they came for the Communists, but we were not communists, so we said nothing. Then they came for the trade unionists, but we were not trade unionists, so we said nothing. They then came for the Jews, but we were not Jews, so we said nothing. They then came for the mentally deficient, but we were not mentally deficient, so we said nothing. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to say anything."


Mine was a take off of this quote where this pastor was talking about the slow erosion of rights.
roger
 
  5  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 02:11 pm
@engineer,
I think everyone else was familiar with the original, if not the exact wording and source.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 02:20 pm


It's time to deploy the National Guard and close the border.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 02:43 pm
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:
It's time to deploy the National Guard and close the border.
It really IS. Can u help us with a moat?

Maybe lay minefields along the fence behind the moat.





David
hamburgboy
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 02:50 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote :

Quote:
As I said before, lobby for significantly higher taxes and we can pay the deficit and start spending more on border enforcement.


seems that no one has read engineers post ... ... reasonable suggestions on how to deal with a problem are often overlooked .
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 03:02 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
The canal separating the US and Mexico was on 60 Minutes the other night. It's drowning a lot of people. Got a big graveyard of Juan and Jane Does. I think your moats been taken care of.
It's pretty sad.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 03:03 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:


No, it was a value-neutral statement about the facts. Quite plausibly, North America's invasion by European settlers violated the laws of the various American-Indian nations, whose claim on the land is older than yours.


No, what you had there was poorly written immigration policy, and weak enforcement. Same as now.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 03:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Arizona’s controversial anti-immigrant law was written by a lawyer at the legal arm of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), which the Southern Poverty Law Center has listed as an anti-immigrant hate group since 2007
there has been some criticism of FAIR but they are mostly considered to be above board.


Um, by who? They fit the description of a hate group perfectly.

Quote:
The SPLC has credibility problems on their own, you should take anything they say with a grain of salt.


According to who? And what are their credibility problems?

I think you just made those things up, because of what your personal opinions are, and extrapolated them to 'everyone.'

Cycloptichorn
 

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