51
   

May I see your papers, citizen?

 
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 08:54 am
@hawkeye10,
I have a problem with the inevitable methods that must be used to enforce Arizona law, not with the Federal immigration laws themselves.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 08:57 am
@engineer,

What would be the inevitable methods used by the feds be if they suddenly decided to enforce Federal immigration laws?
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 09:10 am
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:


What would be the inevitable methods used by the feds be if they suddenly decided to enforce Federal immigration laws?

Well, here's what one of the consequences wouldn't be. The Feds, unlike Arizona police under the new law, would have the option to ignore frivolous denunciations. Under the new Arizona law, I can harass people (illegal aliens, legal aliens, or citizens) by calling 911 and saying "There's a buncha of Mexican looking people around the street corner, you better check them out." Okay, that part I could always do. But until now, the police could freely decide I'm just a racist douchebag, and not send a car over. Now if they don't pursue my "lead", I have standing to sue them in court.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 09:16 am
@Thomas,


The feds have adopted a don't ask - don't tell policy when it comes to the border problem under "Nappy" Napolitano.
Also, it's a bunch of racist douche-bags that are protecting and enabling illegal aliens.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 09:23 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
1) US law isn't Arizona's to enforce, so this should be a non-starter
And yet that is not one of the grounds on which this law is being challenged, and on page 29 of this thread we have the answer by someone who was involved in this bill

Quote:
State governments aren’t allowed to get involved in immigration, which is a federal matter. While it is true that Washington holds primary authority in immigration, the Supreme Court since 1976 has recognized that states may enact laws to discourage illegal immigration without being pre-empted by federal law. As long as Congress hasn’t expressly forbidden the state law in question, the statute doesn’t conflict with federal law and Congress has not displaced all state laws from the field, it is permitted. That’s why Arizona’s 2007 law making it illegal to knowingly employ unauthorized aliens was sustained by the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit


All you have is an assertion, where is your documentation that the Supreme court does not allow States to write law concurrently with the Feds on immigration?

Quote:
2) Laws can be discriminatory as applied even when they aren't on their face
So? The law has not been applied yet, so you can't currently claim that it is being applied in a discriminatory way. The legal system deals with actions, not fears....you'll need to see a different profession about that.
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 09:38 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
2) Laws can be discriminatory as applied even when they aren't on their face
So? The law has not been applied yet, so you can't currently claim that it is being applied in a discriminatory way. The legal system deals with actions, not fears....you'll need to see a different profession about that.

But this is an opinionated debate, so a reasonable extrapolation seems to be worthy of discussion. I can't see a way for this law to be applied that doesn't involve profiling. There is no way that police departments are going to haul in every person they interact with who does not have ID. They are clearly going to target a segment of the population and US citizens who match that profile are going to see dramatically increased scrutiny and receive unwarranted hassle. We know that some small portion of police abuse their powers and this gives them even more authority to do so. Those things are what make this a bad law. Moreover, the profiling aspects of this law are obvious. This law doesn't accidentally target a specific community of Americans as an unintended consequence, it clearly targets them as satisfactory collateral damage. To me, impinging upon one group's civil rights to address the immigration issue is not a satisfactory solution.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 09:41 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
1) US law isn't Arizona's to enforce, so this should be a non-starter
And yet that is not one of the grounds on which this law is being challenged

Are you serious? If so, you'll want to Google ' "Arizona immigration law" "Supremacy Clause" ', and read some of the thousands of hits you'll get.

hawkeye10 wrote:
and on page 29 of this thread we have the answer by someone who was involved in this bill

When the charge is that those "involved in this bill" screwed up, you can hardly cite "someone involved in this bill" as an authority against the charge. You might as well cite a fox on the constitutionality of raiding henhouses.

hawkeye wrote:
Quote:
2) Laws can be discriminatory as applied even when they aren't on their face
So? The law has not been applied yet, so you can't currently claim that it is being applied in a discriminatory way.

That's a fair point to make against the charge of racism. It's also the reason why I cautioned, in my very first post here, that we should see how it's applied. It doesn't touch other problems with the bill, but on the issue of racism, I'm fine with waiting, seeing, and suing only as necessary.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 10:07 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
Are you serious? If so, you'll want to Google ' "Arizona immigration law" "Supremacy Clause" ', and read some of the thousands of hits you'll get.


that is not an answer...the claim that the previous arizona immigration law survived challange intact is true, and you have nothing to support your claims.

Furthermore
Quote:
The Supremacy Clause has been interpreted to come in effect only when the federal government has acted in an area. In Edgar v. Mite Corporation, 457 U.S. 624 (1982), the Supreme Court ruled that "A state statute is void to the extent that it actually conflicts with a valid federal statute." In effect, this means that a state law will be found to violate the supremacy clause when either of two conditions exists:[1]

1.Compliance with both federal and state law is impossible, or
2."...state law stands as an obstacle to the accomplishment and execution of the full purposes and objectives of Congress..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause

If Arizona enforces federal law then it is not in violation of the supremacy clause. Please prove otherwise or else move along.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 10:12 am
Quote:
FOR RELEASE
Thursday
April 29, 2010

Enforcement of Federal Immigration Laws at the State and Local Levels

Encouraging state and local law enforcement agencies to help enforce federal immigration laws could help identify out-of-status immigrants eligible for deportation, but may also have unintended consequences, according to a study issued today by the RAND Corporation.

"Enforcement of immigration laws has traditionally been a federal responsibility," said Jessica Saunders, lead author of the study and a criminologist with RAND, a nonprofit research organization. "But it's clear that the federal government alone isn't going to be able to clear the backlog of cases without some additional assistance.

"The question is, how do you involve state and local law enforcement in immigration enforcement without disrupting their regular duties or placing additional, undue financial burdens on cities and states? Currently there is no consistent, nationwide approach."

The RAND study provides an overview of the federal laws that addresses the problem of unauthorized immigration and highlights emerging state and local responses to immigration issues. Saunders and her colleagues also suggest areas for further research to add evidence to the largely anecdotal information that characterizes discussion of comprehensive immigration reform.

Researchers say partnerships between federal, state and local law enforcement is one policy option that is gaining popularity. For example, Arizona's governor this month signed a law makes it a state crime to be in the U.S. illegally and directs police to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal.

There are 67 formal agreements between the federal government and state and local criminal justice agencies empowering local officials to enforce immigration laws. Such efforts are credited with identifying 140,000 deportable immigrants from 2006 to 2009.

However, such efforts come with concerns about the potential for racial profiling, strained community relations and improper resource allocation, Saunders said.

There are an estimated 12 million out-of-status immigrants currently in the United States, including people who entered the United States illegally and those who overstayed their visas. A third group, about 5 percent of all out-of-status immigrants, consists of those who have been processed through the courts and subsequently ignored deportation orders. That group is the target of stepped-up national law enforcement efforts.

At the current rate and budget levels, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security's Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency estimates that it would take 15 years and more than $5 billion to clear just the backlog of those who have been ordered deported.

In many regions, state and local law enforcement do not actively engage in immigration enforcement. Those agencies have adopted policies of limited cooperation with federal immigration enforcement efforts where they support federal efforts to remove illegal immigrants convicted of felonies, but decline to identify and remove undocumented immigrants. Many cities, including New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, the District of Columbia, Chicago, Baltimore and Boston, have passed legislation explicitly limiting local law enforcement's role in enforcing immigration laws.

Other jurisdictions have partnered with the federal officials to enforce immigration laws. These partnerships can work, but at a cost, Saunders said. A 2007 partnership between Immigrations and Customs Enforcement and the sheriff's department in Maricopa County, Arizona, resulted in deputies identifying 16,000 illegal immigrants among 106,000 jail inmates over three months.

However, the effort racked up a debt of $1.3 million in only three months, the percentage of crimes the department solved dropped and the time it took for officers to respond to calls for service grew. The federal government has since cancelled the agreement and the sheriff now faces a lawsuit alleging racial profiling stemming from the immigration enforcement practices.

Another concern is that if state and local law enforcement officers begin enforcing immigration laws, it will promote fear and distrust among the immigrant population at large. This could hamper state and local law enforcement's ability to investigate other crimes and interfere with its mission to protect and serve all members of the public, whether or not they are citizens.

Researchers suggest policymakers should focus further research and analysis on questions such as whether effective immigration enforcement can occur without state and local support, whether immigration enforcement compromises local agency's primary mission, and whether immigration enforcement can be conducted while minimizing the risk of racial bias or racial profiling.

The study, "Enforcing Immigration Law at the State and Local Levels: A Public Policy Dilemma," can be found at www.rand.org. Other authors include Nelson Lim and Don Prosnitz.

Research for the study was funded by and conducted under the auspices of the RAND Center on Quality Policing, which is part of the Safety and Justice Program within RAND Infrastructure, Safety and Environment. The center's mission is to help guide the efforts of police agencies to improve the efficiency, effectiveness and fairness of their operations.
http://www.rand.org/news/press/2010/04/29/

Note to Thomas: DO you notice that no where does Rand say that states CAN'T do Immigration law?
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 10:56 am
I'm surprised there is not more right wing push back on this law. Usually giving more power to the police to combat crime involves some level of surrender of civil liberties although it is usually small. Want more cameras to deter crime, expect less privacy in public spaces. Want to better track violent criminals, register guns. Want to listen in on potential terrorists, authorize widespread wiretaps. Usually, the conservatives and constitutionalists resist such reductions in rights, but here they are fully supporting them. (The exception is the Bush crowd. Jeb Bush, Michael Gerson, Tom Ridge, Mark McKinnon and Karl Rove have all either spoken out or "expressed reservations" about Arizona's law.) How can you reject gun registration when it can help police solve crimes but be ok with police stopping citizens and demanding they prove their citizenship?
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:06 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

...Under the new Arizona law, I can harass people (illegal aliens, legal aliens, or citizens) by calling 911 and saying "There's a buncha of Mexican looking people around the street corner, you better check them out." Okay, that part I could always do. But until now, the police could freely decide I'm just a racist douchebag, and not send a car over. Now if they don't pursue my "lead", I have standing to sue them in court.

Completely wrong. On April 30, the Arizona legislature passed House Bill 2162, which modified the law that had been signed by Governor Brewer, with the amended text stating that police may only investigate immigration status incident to a "lawful stop, detention, or arrest." The law has been changed so that they are not permitted to question someone based only on suspicion of immigration violation.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:08 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

I'm surprised there is not more right wing push back on this law. Usually giving more power to the police to combat crime involves some level of surrender of civil liberties although it is usually small. Want more cameras to deter crime, expect less privacy in public spaces. Want to better track violent criminals, register guns. Want to listen in on potential terrorists, authorize widespread wiretaps. Usually, the conservatives and constitutionalists resist such reductions in rights, but here they are fully supporting them. (The exception is the Bush crowd. Jeb Bush, Michael Gerson, Tom Ridge, Mark McKinnon and Karl Rove have all either spoken out or "expressed reservations" about Arizona's law.) How can you reject gun registration when it can help police solve crimes but be ok with police stopping citizens and demanding they prove their citizenship?


They don't get so angry over the rights of Brown people, haven't you noticed?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:11 am
@hawkeye10,
Under the test Wikipedia's page cites, Arizona's immigration law fails under point 2."...state law stands as an obstacle to the accomplishment and execution of the full purposes and objectives of Congress..."

Among other things, Arizona's immigration law interferes with the federal government's conduct of foreign relations with the countries the immigrants come from. For reasons you may approve of or not, the federal government has chosen to pursue "Congress's full purposes" by approaching illegal immigration with kid gloves. Arizona is interfering with that choice by wielding a big stick. That's a foul under the supremacy clause: Arizona has no right to interfere with the federal government's foreign policy by treating foreigners harsher than the federal government chooses to.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:12 am


More and more people on the right side of things are not white.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:13 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
1) US law isn't Arizona's to enforce, so this should be a non-starter


The Constitution is US law.
The voting rights act is US law.

Are you actually saying that the Az state govt has no responsibility or right to enforce US law?
That would mean that no laws passed by Congress could be enforced by AZ, and you would have complete chaos and anarchy.
Is that preferable?
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:13 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
Completely wrong. On April 30, the Arizona legislature passed House Bill 2162, which modified the law that had been signed by Governor Brewer, with the amended text stating that police may only investigate immigration status incident to a "lawful stop, detention, or arrest."

In the scenario I outlined, and to which you responded, the police would technically be following up on a 911 call. How is that not a lawful stop?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:17 am
@mysteryman,
Mysteryman wrote:
The Constitution is US law.
The voting rights act is US law.


Arizona cannot logically enforce the Voting Rights Act. Arizona runs the elections, so who would it enforce the Act against? All Arizona can do is violate the Voting Rights Act (or not) by keeping people from voting (or not).

Likewise for the US constitution. If Arizona violates your rights under the US constitution, you'll need to sue the state in federal court. It is then the federal government's business to enforce the constitution against the state -- if necessary, by sending the National Guard in. Arizona has no authority to enforce the US constitution.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:18 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Completely wrong. On April 30, the Arizona legislature passed House Bill 2162, which modified the law that had been signed by Governor Brewer, with the amended text stating that police may only investigate immigration status incident to a "lawful stop, detention, or arrest."

In the scenario I outlined, and to which you responded, the police would technically be following up on a 911 call. How is that not a lawful stop?

How about because no crime whatever was alleged by the 911 caller? Being "Mexican looking" isn't a crime. Further, the amendment passed on April 30 expressly forbids investigations based on "race, color or national origin." The amended law mandates that investigation of immigration status can only be an adjunct to investigation of a different crime.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:18 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
Among other things, Arizona's immigration law interferes with the federal government's conduct of foreign relations with the countries the immigrants come from.


You have got to be kidding!!
How does Az enforcing the law interfere with international diplomacy?

And how come Mexico, by not stopping the immigrants on THEIR SIDE of the border, also isnt guilty of interfering with US diplomacy?
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:28 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
How does Az enforcing the law interfere with international diplomacy?

Right back at you: How can a state's treatment of foreign nationals not affect US relations with the nation they belong to?

mysteryman wrote:
And how come Mexico, by not stopping the immigrants on THEIR SIDE of the border, also isn't guilty of interfering with US diplomacy?

1) Because the Republic of Mexico, unlike the state of Arizona, is not bound by the US constitution.

2) Because international law, which the Republic of Mexico is subject to, imposes no duty on any nation to prevent its citizens from emigrating. Indeed, doing so would violate Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country." By stopping the immigrants (emigrants from Mexico's perspective), the Mexican government would interfere with the human right of Mexicans to leave Mexico.
0 Replies
 
 

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