51
   

May I see your papers, citizen?

 
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:41 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

Further, the amendment passed on April 30 expressly forbids investigations based on "race, color or national origin." The amended law mandates that investigation of immigration status can only be an adjunct to investigation of a different crime.

It is very easy for the police to determine that some misdemeanor has been committed and to pursue you under that if they desire to. I was listening to an interesting story about the founder of Kop Busters. A policeman who committed serious violations of civil rights as a policeman left the force, regretted his actions and decided to use his inside knowledge to set up stings to catch the police violating civil rights laws. When he posted his videos, the police filed a misdemeanor charge against him, used that to storm his house and arrest him (on a low level misdemeanor) and as a result, he lost custody of his wife's child. Of course this example is extreme, but the idea that the police cannot investigate you without cause is clearly wrong. It only applies if the police choose to let it apply. That is not to say I am anti-police, I just have a realistic view of how the amount of authority they wield can distort their belief system.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:43 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
Thomas wrote:
...
In the scenario I outlined, and to which you responded, the police would technically be following up on a 911 call. How is that not a lawful stop?

How about because no crime whatever was alleged by the 911 caller? Being "Mexican looking" isn't a crime.

So I re-word my phone call and alert the police to "suspicious-looking Mexicans". (There doesn't have to be an actual crime in progress before I can call 911.)

Brandon9000 wrote:
Further, the amendment passed on April 30 expressly forbids investigations based on "race, color or national origin."

You conveniently neglect to quote the word that comes just before "on race ...". That word is "solely". Arizona authorities "shall not investigate complaints that are based solely on race, color or national origin."But they can investigate based on race, color, or national origin, as long as it also investigates based on other things. This condition is satisfied when I make my anonymous 911 call and say: "There are suspicious-looking people around the street corner. They appear to be Mexican. Bet they're up to no good."
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:45 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

And how come Mexico, by not stopping the immigrants on THEIR SIDE of the border, also isnt guilty of interfering with US diplomacy?

I don't think the United States stops their citizens from leaving the country. I can go to Mexico or Canada without anyone from the US asking me for any ID at all (unless I'm flying.)
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:50 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Thomas wrote:
...
In the scenario I outlined, and to which you responded, the police would technically be following up on a 911 call. How is that not a lawful stop?

How about because no crime whatever was alleged by the 911 caller? Being "Mexican looking" isn't a crime.

So I re-word my phone call and alert the police to "suspicious-looking Mexicans". (There doesn't have to be an actual crime in progress before I can call 911.)

Brandon9000 wrote:
Further, the amendment passed on April 30 expressly forbids investigations based on "race, color or national origin."

You conveniently neglect to quote the word that comes just before "on race ...". That word is "solely". The police can investigate based on race, color, or national origin, as long as there also are other things based on which it investigates. This condition is satisfied when I make my anonymous 911 call and "There are suspicious-looking people around the street corner. They appear to be Mexican. Bet they're up to no good."

This is a ludicrous allegation. I can also turn you in this way and get you harassed by the police, even if you haven't done anything wrong, or do it to my neighbors, or anyone else. The fact that is that the law expressly prohibits the authorities from asking people for papers based on race or appearance. Should the police find an illegal immigrant this way, they can be assured it would simply be tossed out of court because the law forbids the procedure. The thing you consistently fail to take into account in any way, shape, or form, is that there are now 12 million people in the country illegally and the citizens near the border are incredibly justified in trying to remedy the problem.
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 12:00 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
This is a ludicrous allegation. I can also turn you in this way and get you harassed by the police, even if you haven't done anything wrong, or do it to my neighbors, or anyone else.

But if Florida police, knowing what a troublemaker you are, chooses not to investigate your call about me, can you sue them? Under Arizona's new law, you could.

Brandon9000 wrote:
The fact that is that the law expressly prohibits the authorities from asking people for papers based on race or appearance.

You continue to ignore the distinction between the phrases "based on race" and "based solely on race". But aside of that, the law does not prohibit racists from alerting the police based on race or appearance. And the law makes it hard for the police to deliberately not investigate the racist's alert, because that would attract the risk of legal liability. Hence, although the law may not be discriminatory on its face, I expect it to produce discrimination in practice.

Brandon9000 wrote:
The thing you consistently fail to take into account in any way, shape, or form, is that there are now 12 million people in the country illegally and the citizens near the border are incredibly justified in trying to remedy the problem.

I am taking it into account. The solution I propose to the problem is to legalize all immigration. This may not be the "way, shape or form" you want me to account for it in, but that's your problem. I am accounting for it.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 12:19 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
This is a ludicrous allegation. I can also turn you in this way and get you harassed by the police, even if you haven't done anything wrong, or do it to my neighbors, or anyone else.

But if Florida police, knowing what a troublemaker you are, chooses not to investigate your call about me, can you sue them? Under Arizona's new law, you could.

Brandon9000 wrote:
The fact that is that the law expressly prohibits the authorities from asking people for papers based on race or appearance.

You continue to ignore the distinction between the phrases "based on race" and "based solely on race". But aside of that, the law does not prohibit racists from alerting the police based on race or appearance. And the law makes it hard for the police to deliberately not investigate the racist's alert, because that would attract the risk of legal liability. Hence, although the law may not be discriminatory on its face, I expect it to produce discrimination in practice.

Brandon9000 wrote:
The thing you consistently fail to take into account in any way, shape, or form, is that there are now 12 million people in the country illegally and the citizens near the border are incredibly justified in trying to remedy the problem.

I am taking it into account. The solution I propose to the problem is to legalize all immigration. This may not be the "way, shape or form" you want me to account for it in, but that's your problem. I am accounting for it.

Alright, hypothetically, suppose that I make a false report to the police that a group of hispanic looking people are "up to no good" and the police don't come. Please quote for me the section of the law which suggests that I could then sue them successfully.

As for your "solution," what I really intended to ask you was what "valid" law the majority of citizens who want to retain the immigration laws and enforce them could do to accomplish it. Please provide an alternative for enforcing the law, which you wouldn't consider a travesty of justice.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 12:31 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Under the test Wikipedia's page cites, Arizona's immigration law fails under point 2."...state law stands as an obstacle to the accomplishment and execution of the full purposes and objectives of Congress..."

Among other things, Arizona's immigration law interferes with the federal government's conduct of foreign relations with the countries the immigrants come from. For reasons you may approve of or not, the federal government has chosen to pursue "Congress's full purposes" by approaching illegal immigration with kid gloves. Arizona is interfering with that choice by wielding a big stick. That's a foul under the supremacy clause: Arizona has no right to interfere with the federal government's foreign policy by treating foreigners harsher than the federal government chooses to.
You are claiming that Congress under the supremacy clause has the right to do one thing but say another. This is not going to fly. Congress states its objectives when it writes law, if their objectives contradict the law they write then they need to rewrite the law.
Advocate
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 12:31 pm
@Always Eleven to him,
Always Eleven to him wrote:

I venture to say that if my father and I walked down a street in AZ speaking German, we would not be asked for our papers. <sigh>


It is a matter of numbers. The massive influx of illegals consists of Hispanics, not Germans. Thus, law enforcement would naturally be suspicious of Hispanic people. Sometimes, one must use common sense.

For instance, if you wished to publish a booklet that would help newly arrived aliens in the Southwest, you would write it in Spanish. You would not, to be fair, write it in 160 different languages.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 01:01 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
You are claiming that Congress under the supremacy clause has the right to do one thing but say another. This is not going to fly. Congress states its objectives when it writes law, if their objectives contradict the law they write then they need to rewrite the law.

Whether you approve or not, the federal government can choose to enforce its own laws with lenience or even decline to enforce them at all. Either way, this choice preempts states from enforcing federal law where the federal government does not.

The Supreme Court affirmed this practice in American Insurance Institute v. Garamendi. California had enacted a law enforcing insurance claims of Holocaust survivors against German insurance companies. Every party of the case stipulates that the claims themselves were valid. At the same time, however, the Federal government was making a deal with Germany, under which it agreed not to enforce those insurance claims under US law. (Instead, German insurers passed the hat around among themselves, and the claims were paid out of that hat.)

The Supreme Court struck down California's law under the US constitution's Supremacy Clause: "The basic fact is that California seeks to use an iron fist where the President has consistently chosen kid gloves. We have heard powerful arguments that the iron fist would work better [...]. But our thoughts on the efficacy of the one approach versus the other are beside the point, since our business is not to judge the wisdom of the National Government’s policy; dissatisfaction should be addressed to the President or, perhaps, Congress. The question relevant to preemption in this case is conflict, and the evidence here is 'more than sufficient to demonstrate that the state Act stands in the way of [the President’s] diplomatic objectives.' "

The analogy with Arizona's interference with US immigration policy is close.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 01:20 pm
@Thomas,
the federal government has no claim that it is failing to pursue its immigration law for foreign policy reasons. It also only disputes Arizona's methods, up till now Congress has been clear that it wishes to stop illegal immigration.

Congress could write new law which would invalidate the new Arizona law, and if they are upset about it that is what they should do. Reid's problem is that as much as he wants to atone for his failure in 2006 by doing reform now the nation has over that time moved far to the right on the Immigration problem. What he could have gotten passed into law then he can't do now. It is going to be very difficult to invalidate Arizona with new law, and I don't expect SCOTUS to backstop a derelict Congress on this either.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 01:39 pm
@Thomas,
The government may not capriciously refuse to enforce its laws. See:

How do you file a writ of mandamus?
A mandamus is an order to a public agency or governmental body to perform an act required by law when it has neglected or refused to do so. A person may petition for a writ of mandamus when an official has refused to fulfill a legal obligat...
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_file_a_writ_of_man...
ebrown p
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 01:53 pm
@Advocate,
Isn't this a silly argument.

You are basically saying that because some people are still breaking the law-- that means that it is not being enforced.

There are people who use controlled substances. There are lots of people who break the speed limit. There are lots of laws being broken.

In each of these cases, you could cut down the number of people breaking these laws by violating civil rights (for example, searches without probable cause would certainly lead to more drug arrests).

.... would you argue that the fact that the government is respecting civil rights means that it isn't enforcing the law in any case other than immigration?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 01:57 pm
@Advocate,
A writ of mandamus doesn't come from individual citizens. It comes from a superior court and goes to an inferior court or some other government agency. All that individuals can do is to petition for a writ of mandamus, which the court can then grant or deny. That's what the page behind your link is about.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 02:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
the federal government has no claim that it is failing to pursue its immigration law for foreign policy reasons. It also only disputes Arizona's methods,

... and those methods have already begun to burden US-Mexican relations. See the travel warnings that Mexican government agencies have issued. The Arizona law is screwing with the federal executive's foreign relations, and the feds have the rightful power to stop it.

[quote="hawkeye10"It is going to be very difficult to invalidate Arizona with new law, and I don't expect SCOTUS to backstop a derelict Congress on this either. [/quote]
I guess we'll find out.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 02:13 pm
@Thomas,
The administration unhappy that needs to deal with an unhappy Mexican government/ enforcing federal law which has as its prime purpose promoting the welfare and security of the United States of America.

Which side you figure is going to win that argument in a court of law?

You are grasping at straws. You are reduced to this because you take the idiotic position that America does not have the right to look out for its own interests above those of citizens of other countries.

Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 02:13 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Further, the amendment passed on April 30 expressly forbids investigations based on "race, color or national origin." The amended law mandates that investigation of immigration status can only be an adjunct to investigation of a different crime.

It is very easy for the police to determine that some misdemeanor has been committed and to pursue you under that if they desire to. I was listening to an interesting story about the founder of Kop Busters. A policeman who committed serious violations of civil rights as a policeman left the force, regretted his actions and decided to use his inside knowledge to set up stings to catch the police violating civil rights laws. When he posted his videos, the police filed a misdemeanor charge against him, used that to storm his house and arrest him (on a low level misdemeanor) and as a result, he lost custody of his wife's child. Of course this example is extreme, but the idea that the police cannot investigate you without cause is clearly wrong. It only applies if the police choose to let it apply. That is not to say I am anti-police, I just have a realistic view of how the amount of authority they wield can distort their belief system.

Yes, of course there can be bad police who ignore the law, but that's hardly a reason to tolerate having 12 million people in the country illegally. The law does all it can to discourage investigation based on appearance, by prohibiting investigation of illegal immigration unless there is an investigation of another crime underway.

This law is really the creation of liberals who have consistently argued down every milder bill or plan to deal with enforcing the immigration laws so that we finally have millions and millions and millions of illegals here and some state passes a very firm law to try to deal with it.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 02:34 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

A writ of mandamus doesn't come from individual citizens. It comes from a superior court and goes to an inferior court or some other government agency. All that individuals can do is to petition for a writ of mandamus, which the court can then grant or deny. That's what the page behind your link is about.


You are missing the point that, through mandamus, the government can often be required to enforce a law.
ebrown p
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 03:01 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:

You are missing the point that, through mandamus, the government can often be required to enforce a law.


Factually it can't. The Federal government has sovereign immunity, meaning this whole tangent is irrelevant in any legal sense.
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 03:26 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

This law is really the creation of liberals who have consistently argued down every milder bill or plan to deal with enforcing the immigration laws so that we finally have millions and millions and millions of illegals here and some state passes a very firm law to try to deal with it.

I'm not concerned with the impact of the law on illegal immigrants. I'm concerned with the impact on citizens. While the law has provisions saying that profiling will not be used, in practicality, that is impossible. Either you question every person you stop for any crime, arresting all those without ID or you use some screening system to decide who to question. Police can't take in everyone, so they are going to use a screening system and that's going to be skin color. US citizens with brown skin are going to face significantly more police scrutiny than other citizens. I don't see a way around that and to me that makes this a bad law. If we are willing to give up liberties to ensure better law enforcement, we should do it equally instead of demanding a particular group of citizens sacrifice more because of their skin color.
ABE5177
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 03:51 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

I'm not concerned with the impact of the law on illegal immigrants. I'm concerned with the impact on citizens.


all law enforcement involves some hassle for the law abiding citizens even if it's only $$$. walked through an airport recently??
Quote:
Bank robbers are not making unauthorized withdrawals.

Illegal aliens are not undocumented immigrants.
 

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