51
   

May I see your papers, citizen?

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 10:48 pm
@Francis,
David might get that. He just is adament against interlopers.



On geneology and my family history - I tend to believe my father and am sorry I ever lost that essay I wrote in fifth grade (stolen in a box of stuff from a later art gallery). I have a geneology savvy friend who looked my family up. I'm interested, but not enough to spend those hours myself. Christ, a batch of lawyers on my fathers side, if she was right. But the story differs from my father's and that boat/raft, and I'll pick his story.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 12:48 am
@Francis,
Francis wrote:
You simply don't get it, David.

Residents and citizens are different concepts.
That is MY position, Francis.
I suspected that u implied the opposite.
I "get" my own position.





Francis wrote:
Resident of New Mexico doesn't mean that you are New Mexican.
To ME, it certainly does NOT,
but to some people with whom I disagree, it might.
Therein lies the uncertainty and the need for clearly defined terms.

"Resident of New Mexico" means a New Mexican RESIDENT.
Some foreigners who hang around there long enuf
might possibly think of themselves as being "New Mexicans."
This group can include illegal aliens, criminals, who travel to Arizona from New Mexico (Arizona is not far from New Mexico)
and who Gov. Richardson shoud not assist to violate American law, neither federal law nor Arizona law.






Francis wrote:
But if you are New Mexican, you are a citizen of New Mexico and (to Dys eternal dysmay) an American citizen.
Some people may dispute that; some (not including me) may allege
that a man can be a "New Mexican" by virtue of residence alone,
without being a citizen of New Mexico, having no voting rights.

In other words,
it may well be the case that some people
will claim to be "New Mexicans" tho thay are non-citizen residents.




Francis wrote:
Mind that are resident citizens there.
Thank u for that information.





Francis wrote:
Do I have to explain the concept of non-citizen resident?
No.





David
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 03:24 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Spendius, go stick your head in the toilet
and find out how sensitive that is; be sure to report back.


I didn't think you would supply the proof so quickly that you are not a serious participant in this debate.

As has been reported on both CBS News and Fox News, both of which I watch a bit, our Prime Minister has, many say, blown his chance of winning Thursday's general election due to a microphone not being switched off and picking up him calling a granny a "bigot" for exactly the sort of attitude you, and some others, are taking on this issue. And he was right to call her that. She is a bigot. Somebody with stubbornly fixed opinions who doesn't understand the issues.

It's a big issue here and not very well understood by racist bigots. And this is an island. And the immigrants here haven't got the argument that they are not the immigrants at all but the others are.

The people who brought in the new law in Az. must have known the firestorm which would break out and their willingness to face up to it measures how desperate they had become.



0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 03:29 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
away from what remains of the free market in laissez faire capitalism,


It's the immigrants who are practicing laissez faire capitalism, Darwin style. Your's is the collectivist attitude.
ebrown p
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 04:31 am
@spendius,
That is true Spendius.

Having the government tell you who you can hire to work at your business, who you can rent an apartment to, who you can marry...

David seems to love letting the government control these things.
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 05:17 am
@ebrown p,
And apparently, so does the left.
Under EEOC and various other labor laws, the govt can tell you who you can hire, the govt has passed laws, that you support, about fair housing.
Those laws say you have to rent to various people, and the penalties if you dont.

So, apparently you also want the govt controlling these things.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 07:13 am


MARCH OF THE ILLEGAL ALIENS
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 07:15 am
@mysteryman,
Quote:

So, apparently you also want the govt controlling these things.


Sure. But we are honest about it.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 07:19 am


"OK, we're here. We broke the law coming here. We broke the law staying here, and we're breaking the law working here ... and frankly, amigos, we don't give a damn whether you like it or not. The problem is yours, not ours. We're here, we're not going anywhere, and there isn't really anything you can do about it. If you arrest us --- if you so much as look at us cross-eyed --- we're going to start screaming racial profiling and human rights abuses so fast and so loudly that there won't be a news agency in the world that will not come running to demonize your country. "
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 07:23 am
@H2O MAN,
Boortz is an idiot.

It is a myth that the immigration debate is Americans vs. "illegals". The "us vs. them" meme is ridiculous-- particularly the attempt to brand anyone who disagrees with you as an "enabler" as if disagreement is somehow un-American.

The fact is that there are millions of American citizens who want immigration reform... and thousands of us were at those marches.

US citizens who are against the Arizona bill (in particular) include

- The Players Association for Major League baseball.
- Mayors and Police chiefs from Arizona.
- Hispanic Americans in public life from George Lopez to Shakira.
- Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.
- Hispanic elected officials, a couple of who were arrested on Sunday as civil disobedience.
- Non-Hispanic elected officials.
- Labor unions from the AFL-CIO to the SEIU.

There are lots of Americans who believe that our country is better when it is not run by racists.

And, as American citizens, we not only get to march. We get to vote.

Deal with it.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 07:26 am
ebrown p is an idiot and we deal with it.

ebrown p wouldn't stand a chance debating Boortz on any subject.

My feeling is that ebrown p is a racists.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 07:41 am
@ebrown p,
Quote:
There are lots of Americans who believe that our country is better when it is not run by racists


So now its racist to want the laws enforced?
You and I have had this discussion many times.
You continue to paint any attempt to enforce the law as being racist
Now you may not like the law, and you have every right to try and get it changed, but you have no right to portray those who support the law as racist.

Why is it racist to want immigration laws enforced?
Why is it racist to want our borders secure?
Why is it racist to expect those who come here to abide by the law?

When those that come here illegaly know that there are no consequences for violating the law, why should they fear the law?
There should be consequences, from deportation to imprisonment for repeat offenders..
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 07:41 am
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:



The fact is that there are millions of American citizens who want
immigration reform... and thousands of us were at those marches.


Why have these protesting idiots never marched against Federal immigration laws?


The fact is that millions of Americans want federal immigration
laws enforced... and they fully understand Obama will not do this.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 07:43 am
@ebrown p,
I believe the people of Arizona want the law. Wasn't it you that said that what happens in your state is only the responsibility of the people in your state and others should butt out of your states politics when we discussed the senator issue way back when?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 08:07 am
@McGentrix,
It doesn't matter what the "people of Arizona" want. That is a mere surface phenomenum. And thus easy to think about.

It is the pressure beneath the surface which gives rise to what's on the surface which is the real issue. And that is not easy to think about. It can't be dealt with in a few throwaway sentences in opposition to other throwaway sentences.

Arizona, one has to presume from the facts, exerts an attraction to the peoples in the south, as powerful and unavoidable as a magnetic attraction. They are not trying to swarm into Tierra del Fuego or Alaska.

Whether reducing the attraction can be achieved under the law of the US is a moot point. It is clearly a federal issue because Arizona is possibly only a temporary staging post.

Maybe Mr Obama is riding the wave of history and destiny.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 08:26 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Why is it racist to want immigration laws enforced?
Why is it racist to want our borders secure?
Why is it racist to expect those who come here to abide by the law?

It certainly isn't racist to expect laws to be enforced. The issue with this law is that in order to enforce it, you must either A) demand identification of all people stopped by police and detain all wh0 can't show ID or B) define some criteria that allows more targeted selection of people. Option A is a crushing blow to civil liberty and a huge drain on police resources. Option B directly leads to persecution of a segment of the population. In this case, the police will almost certainly target people of Mexican decent. If you are an American citizen of Mexican decent, you have the exact same right to be free of police harassment as every other citizen.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 08:33 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

I believe the people of Arizona want the law. Wasn't it you that said that what happens in your state is only the responsibility of the people in your state and others should butt out of your states politics when we discussed the senator issue way back when?

People in Alabama wanted Jim Crow laws. While not as extreme as those, this law will in effect create first class citizens who are not bothered by police and second class citizens who are routinely questioned by police about their citizenship status. Government officials of Arizona says this isn't going to happen. To me this means they are either intentionly lying for political purposes or so naive as to be unqualified for office.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 08:38 am
@engineer,
Quote:
People in Alabama wanted Jim Crow laws. While not as extreme as those,
All Arizona is doing is enforcing existing US immigration law. If you think these laws are extreme take it up with Congress and leave Arizona out of it.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 08:49 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

All Arizona is doing is enforcing existing US immigration law.


Exactly.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  4  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 08:53 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
All Arizona is doing is enforcing existing US immigration law.

1) US law isn't Arizona's to enforce, so this should be a non-starter.

2) Laws can be discriminatory as applied even when they aren't on their face. For example, in the 50s and 60s, Southern States tried to keep civil rights activists down by punishing them -- and only them -- by finding trivial infringements like parking tickets and imposing extreme fines or even jail time for them. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with laws against wrongful parking. But the laws as applied became an instrument of intimidating people whose politics the state didn't like.

Opponents of Arizona's new immigration law expect that its consequences will be similar. Even if immigration laws are fine on their face, they can turn into an instrument of harassing Mexican-looking people as applied in practice.
 

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