Sexual Abstinence

On any issue George there is alway a lot more then that but as as starting point the society on average seem to had been better off then young adults enter long term relationships sooner then they are doing now.

Far less out of wedlock births, far more long term stable marriages and far less trouble children and so on.

And very good fun in my experience which was after the blanket wrapping became outdated. Non virgins probably can't manage it.

Mismi, you might be one of the few younger members here who can answer Chai's question. Would have been content never to have had a full sexual relationship if you didn't meet a man you wanted to marry? Would you have been OK with being the 41 year old virgin? Here's the optional bonus question: Was your husband also a virgin on the honeymoon? I ask because I find this decision is taken more seriously by women than by men.

I'm not sure I agree with this statement:


I grew up in the 70's and one of my family members is a divorce lawyer. I distinctly remember him saying the reason he saw such an explosion in business after the divorce laws were relaxed was because so many people rushed into marriage to experience sex. Many of them were from religious backgrounds that preached the importance of waiting for marriage and they did as they were instructed. Sex is a powerful motivator for young people and can block out the real reasons to get married.

I know if had married the first young man I had wanted to have sex with (and thought I loved) I would have made a big mistake. He was my world at the time, but I'm such a different person today it would have been a disaster. I would probably have become curious about chemistry with other men and cheated. My first was also clueless about the sexuality of women (as was I), and the sex I've had with other men has been much better. I've been with the same man now for over 15 years and I think our relationships with others have made us a stronger couple. I'm also glad some other woman (women?) broke my husband in in terms of sex. I think we've each taught each other a few things that would not have been possible if we were less experienced.

Mismi -

I SO appreciate your showing up.

Your response, a thoughtful, practiced one, was what I was waiting for. (I don't count the replies that were just meant to spur arguments)

I'm not looking for arguments, or to convert someone to my way of thinking.

I think you said it best when you said "There is nothing wrong with making that choice"

I understand that parents must, at certain key times of a growing teens life, step in and say "that choice must wait"
However, what bothers me is this "until marriage" part.

Again, doesn't there come a time when the ring on the finger doesn't matter so much? Seriously wondering about that 31 year old virgin I would have been if I had believed in that until marriage part.

That saving yourself for "the One"....isn't sexuality, including sex, part of that determining who that One is?

hehe,
I must have been typing when GW clicked Reply.

Good response greenie

What we've been doing for the last 70 years is not working. Humans are biologically programmed to start families in their late teens or early twenties at the latest and not at 30 or 40. It has to again become both economically feasible and respectable for people to marry and start families at 17 - 20, anything else is wishful thinking.

Other than that, you're right, asking kids to save it until they're 17 or 20 is rational, asking anybody to save it until they're 25 - 35 is not.

Mismi has a point from the perspective of unwanted pregnancy and STD's,
one has to consider what's more important and go from there, although I am certain that parents influence and religion are the biggest factor in sexual abstinence.

My question would be to mismi: would you ask the same for your children?

Had I remained abstinence until marriage, I probably would have cheated
too. One can't help but wonder if others would be more/less compatible -
temptation becomes so much bigger when you haven't had any comparison.

You wisecrack tell me this: how is it economically feasible to start a family
at 17 - 20? Alone this statement of yours, makes the entire thought process
of yours obsolete!

I was 30 when I got married. I was a virgin. So was my husband. Up until that point I dated quite a bit. I knew if I wanted to go further in the relationship strictly by the personality of the guy and how he treated me, well that and the kissing - I guess the sexual attraction. There are definite kissing styles that worked and then some not so much. Of course there were moments of frustration...but I was not ready to be sexually entangled in a relationship until my husband.

I dated guys that were mostly brought up the same way I was. Every once in a while I would date a guy that I had met at school and scared the hell out of me...too fast, too charming and all for one reason . I wasn't interested in finding a guy to sleep with. I wanted a guy to enjoy life with. So the whole seduction scene usually (though exciting they may have been) sent me running.

But it was never like I was going to die if I didn't have sex. I don't think I am frigid either. I just had other things that I was involved with more and they seemed to satisfy me. My husband and I knew each other for 8 years before we really dated. We dated for a year and then got married. I knew though that he was what I wanted. I was not disappointed. We are both pains in the asses at times...but I knew before I married him that marriage was hard. It is probably why I waited as long as I did. Had I married one of the other guys I had dated - I am pretty sure I would have been driven nuts. The Prof. (I call him this because he loves to read and is a wee bit absentminded at times) was the one guy that when he drove me nuts didn't make me want to run. I guess I figured he was worth taking a chance on.

Had I gone on and not married - I can't say I would have stayed a virgin until I was 41 or beyond. Everybody makes decisions based on the moment every once in a while. But I feel I probably would have gone on finding things to do that satisfied me enough to stay focused on my calling - whatever it was at the time...job, service (working with kids), and music (I sang in a band for a while). I was never one that liked getting all emotionally bogged down in a relationship. I liked friendship. And so far that has worked for me and for my husband. But the sexual attraction that came with the friendship has served us well.

As far as this statement:


Maybe I was wrong in the sense that marriage is a decision that you make and as far as I am concerned, once I am in it - I am in it. I know others don't feel that way...so that statement is not necessarily one you can make and feel everyone sees it that way. It can only be true of me. I guess I just meant - it has nothing to do with being a virgin. I knew when I married that it would be for life. If I chose poorly - I would have stuck with it. Of course that is easy to say now...I made a good decision.

it could be.

I wouldn't recommend taking that risk.

Well...I am very happy in the decisions I have made. I have no regrets as far as my dating life is concerned. My life was simpler and because I was taught the best reason to marry is because you have found a best friend, not - the reason to get married is so you can have sex. Don't get me wrong...it would have been hard for me to marry The Prof. had I not been sexually attracted to him. But I knew it would work. I knew it would be fun. And it has been. He drives me INSANE sometimes...but he makes me laugh and he loves me well.

I do believe that I can teach my boys that there is hope for both. Sex is not the end all be all of a person. Though it can be important - it is not the most important thing. As a matter of fact because I based my choice on friendship first, I am better able to say I think we will make it a good long time. Thankfully my husband feels the same way.

Yes, I think I will ask them to do the same thing. Mainly because I am so content with my choices. BUT - that does not mean that I will not be discussing and hearing them out. We are all into talking about things...My hope is that they will be wise in whatever choices they make.

I will just have to take it one day at a time Jane.

But that is why I didn't base MY decisions on sex. What works for me obviously does not work for everybody. But that does not mean I do not think I am right. I do. But I would never force my beliefs on others.

OMG! How much has the population declined?!?!?

That's all we can do with our children
Thank you for your answer, mismi.

One other thing...religion and parenting probably do have something to do with one remaining a virgin until married. It certainly did for me. But - it was because I had a good example in my parents. They are happily married. They fight but they married for friendship as well. I think an example that works is sometimes the best persuasion to follow that example. I can't look back and say that their guidance of me was wrong. I do believe that I was saved a lot of heartache and confusion because of their raising me to believe the way I do.

It worked for me. But we do not believe because we choose to live this way it is right to look down on others for the choices they make. Plenty of bad decisions made on my part...but in this I do believe in hindsight I can say I am pleased. There are not too many things I can say that about...but this one is a biggy.

At every point in history prior to the last hundred years or thereabouts, girls married when they were a little past sexually mature i.e. around 16 - 18, and men when they were physically mature i.e. 18 - 20.

Making that possible again would have to involve some sort of welfare but could not possibly involve any costs greater than what we're doing now which is bringing in 20,000,000 illegal aliens to take up the slack in manpower. Germany and Russia are in mortal danger of total collapse due to unsustainably low birth rates and China is simply missing somewhere between 20,000,000 and 70,000,000 women due to its one-child rule.

In other words the problem is not isolated to the US. Again, what we're doing has not worked.

There seems to be a bit of a false dichotomy though -- marrying for friendship or sex, as opposed to marrying for both. You do say that you were sexually attracted to your husband and that luckily you enjoyed sex once that came around, but like ehBeth I think that's a pretty big gamble that I'm glad turned out well for you.

My parents (who are far from perfect but who I think handled this well) did not in any way encourage me to have sex, and in fact really hoped I'd wait a good long while, but wanted me to be protected if I found myself in a situation where I'd need that protection. While they weren't particularly good examples relationship-wise, their communication to me on this was good. As mentioned before I waited way way longer than most of my peers (18, that might not seem old but most of my peers were 13-16 range), and I've never been a one-night-stand type -- the first guy I had sex with, we had already been together for a while and ended up being together for a couple of years total. Another one asked me to marry him (I said no 'cause I was too young, also I knew that while he was sweet and wonderful [and crazy-good in bed, whew], he wasn't the guy I wanted to spend the rest of my life with). Point -- they were all "deep" friendship/relationships that taught me SO much that I brought to bear on my current relationship (which is now in its 18th year).

My problem is not with recommending that kids wait, and telling them why in a very clear way (not just the pure pregnancy/ STD issues but emotional messiness, vulnerability, etc.). I think that's a very good idea and can be done in tandem with education about safe sex practices. My problem is with abstinence-only programs that don't offer any alternatives, and that make kids feel horrible for having very normal feelings. I'm most interested in keeping kids healthy, happy, and pregnancy-free, and I don't think abstinence-only programs are the best way to do that.

Nobody ever told me anything about it Cal and look how I've turned out. I'm putty in the hands of most women. I sometimes listen to the most atrocious drivel putting on an air as if I'm listening to it intently and with great interest. In my younger days I was more stiff and formal. I actually used to listen.

I have been told that I was the answer to a woman's prayer. And so I should be according to evolutionary principles. You lot do do the choosing don't you? Well then?? It stands to reason. You lot designed us. Why would you not design a chap who is the answer to your prayers. That stands to reason too. We don't all look like the linemen in the NFL because it would be no good to women if we did. That rule wouldn't apply bisexually in the case of the cheer-leaders.

The Colts cheerleaders were shown on our News today. There will be a lot of normal men at the Superbowl I presume if it hasn't got too strong a social cachet aspect yet.

Hence any normal chap is the answer to your prayers. You could say it's what "cool" means. They used to do that Clint Eastwood thing when I came in the pub. Modelling yourself on W.C. Fields rather than Dick van Dyke. And normal means being like other male organisms in the Darwinian canon except with intelligence pooled and applied and going fast. Imagine your Gothic forbears seeing you now gliding down the slopes in your wheels and stopping off at the pharmacy on your way to a pedicure. Fast as that. A mere 500 years.

Anyway--sex education--I just picked it up as I went along. It sort of grew on me at a rate commensurate with my interest. When my mother warned my Auntie Phylis, who wasn't a real auntie actually, to be careful not to burn her ration book when she had her skirt up and her bottom warming near the fire I never even wondered what it meant. At some point I did pick up what it did mean. I'm glad I didn't pick up what some supposed well-meaning adult had said it all meant. I'll have the peer group anytime. The sporty element especially. The secret smokers. Late risers.

One might say, to be a bit fanciful, that the fussy nanny has a secret fear of getting anything wrong in the upbringing of children because of the shame attached to such a thing and that in doing so she gets everything wrong because that is a selfish motive which is inappropriate in the case.

Hence all the heartsearching. It is a dilemma. From Summerhill to N.Korea.

I'm against lessons, talks, head-to heads, come into the library sons--I have something to say to you stuff I'm afraid.

Still-some people have to have driving lessons so I suppose it's the modern way. In some parts at least. Those parts where there is so little that one needs to do that heartsearching might be all there is left.

Moidering I call it.

That's enough testimonial for the rest of us, spendius!




My sex education was similar from my parents side, biology class did a
much better job, thank heavens!



Spendius, today is much different then when you or I grew up and having
a 14 year old daughter who is much more advanced than I was at that age, I want to make sure she knows everything there is to know about pregnancy, STD's, sexual compatibility and peer pressure to engage in sexual practices way before she's ready for it. So far I taught her well, as her first kiss is quite
memorable to her, after I told her that this will stay with her for the rest of her life and she should make sure it's a pleasant memory - she did! Hoping that she continues with this path, I will help her along this way. I am fortunate
that my daughter confides in me, and I contribute this to our candor conversations we've had in that direction. I started early on and will continue
with sex education as the time progresses and she'll have a serious relationship. Education is the key to everything - you should know that, spendius - sex education is not any different, more so today, as we have
life altering diseases resulting from intimate contact.

We seem to have a lot more of these "life altering diseases" these days than I remember ever hearing about.

The VD Clinic may have been a grubby building in a back street and only mentioned in grim mutterings but the pall of its image hung over us like a dark cloud of menace.

I know how important education is. That's not the question. It is which education. Or, more like, the best balance between them.

And anyway--is sex better when it's sanitised and analysed to dust when in actual fact it is both bestial and comical.