Rape & the U.S. Millitary

@Setanta,

That damn George Washington was a damn PC liberal pussy! Doesn't he know soldiers are under a lot of stress?

T
K
O

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He had really bad teeth--odds are, he was just in a lot of pain and had a savage temper that day.

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@Diest TKO,

Diest TKO wrote:

Yeah, I made it 149 days, then I got off. Care to fill me in on that 150th day, and how it has any ******* relevance to women being raped in high percentage?

If your point is that it's a high stress environment, no ****.

Perhaps you would care to illuminate us on just what are the actual norms for human behavior under such circumstances. There really isn't a very long history of systematic and large scale mixing of young men and women in such organizations, and it just may be that there was and is a good reason for it.

Few of the reported rapes are the dramatic and violent events you may visualize - though some undoubtedly are. Many of the reports are also likely false, contrived or done for vengence. That too is part of human nature.

It is indeed a high stress environment, but probably in ways that you haven't yet imagined. You appear to have no experience of it, and very little willingness to concede there might be some relevant features of it that you don't know or understand.

No one argues that rape should go unpunished. I believe the question here is , should any understanding person be surprised at the statistics. A related question might be , what will be the side effects on the effectiveness of these organizations of a large (and probably futile) effort to change these elements of human behavior?

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Perhaps you would care to illuminate us on just what are the actual norms for human behavior under such circumstances.

In my Navy days, I spent 70+ days several times with no sight of land or the sun or open sky. You run a lot of drills, play a lot of cards, eat pizza for Saturday midrats, stand watch six hours out of every eighteen, make fun of your fellow sailors, talk a lot of BS about what you are going to do when you get home. Can't recall a violent episode among the crew in my entire time in.

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@engineer,

I spent about seven years at sea (on aircraft carriers) during a long career that included three combat cruises.. I agree violence was rare - though I do recall a couple of murders. I don't think that is the issue here. The great majority of of the reported "rapes" that are the subject of this thread didn't involve any violence.

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

The great majority of of the reported "rapes" that are the subject of this thread didn't involve any violence.

The great majority of the reported "murders" that are the subject of this thread didn't involve any violence. A wee bit of arsenic in a drink and toast. Now surely the kind folk who perpetrated these ought to be commended on their behavior.

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@Setanta,

We all know Shorteyes and BillRM are notorious misogynists, so their responses here are no surprise. I'm thinking GeorgeOB1 is being a bit defensive of the military, and would do well to clarify how he thinks this problem should be dealt with. Bar women from certain assignments perhaps?

Setanta wrote:

Rape has been a violation of military regulation in the United States since the earliest days. The very first Articles of War published in the United States provided the death penalty for rape. During the revolution, George Washington received a note from one of his regimental commanders stating that two of his men had been caught in an act of rape, and were to be tried by a "drum-head" court. The exchange of notes was a model of terse economy. Washington received a note: "Convicted--recommend execution." On the same piece of paper, Washington wrote: "Concur." He received that piece of paper in return shortly thereafter, with the message: "Executed."

The Articles of War applied to the Navy as well as the Army. Legally, rape was not tolerated in the Navy any more than it was by land, without regard to how long a crew had been at sea.

Thank you for contributing this. I am curious if anyone here believes rape would be as prevelant if this were the way it was still handled today?

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@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

We all know Shorteyes and BillRM are notorious misogynists, so their responses here are no surprise. I'm thinking GeorgeOB1 is being a bit defensive of the military, and would do well to clarify how he thinks this problem should be dealt with. Bar women from certain assignments perhaps?

I'm generally hesitant to write people off with such epithets, no matter how politically correct they may be at the moment.

Mostly I am bemused at the lack of common sense involved in this discussion. Rapes of various kinds and degrees are a fairly common form of crime in our cities. They, and many other crimes, are observably more concentrated in cities and other situations in which people live in close proximity. Demographics also play a part: young populations have a much greater involvement in some crimes than older ones.

What are the nominal statistical expectations for various crimes among populations living in extremely close conditions; often without much outside connection or distraction; and with a median age of about 20? It seems to me that these are THE salient questions, and yet, though we have seen some pontificating by those who have no experience whatever of it, no one has addressed these points.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

We all know Shorteyes and BillRM are notorious misogynists, so their responses here are no surprise. I'm thinking GeorgeOB1 is being a bit defensive of the military, and would do well to clarify how he thinks this problem should be dealt with. Bar women from certain assignments perhaps?

I'm generally hesitant to write people off with such epithets, no matter how politically correct they may be at the moment.

Mostly I am bemused at the lack of common sense involved in this discussion. Rapes of various kinds and degrees are a fairly common form of crime in our cities. They, and many other crimes, are observably more concentrated in cities and other situations in which people live in close proximity. Demographics also play a part: young populations have a much greater involvement in some crimes than older ones.

What are the nominal statistical expectations for various crimes among populations living in extremely close conditions; often without much outside connection or distraction; and with a median age of about 20? It seems to me that these are THE salient questions, and yet, though we have seen some pontificating by those who have no experience whatever of it, no one has addressed these points.

More elephants are illegally taken by poachers in lands where the elephants are more plentiful too. Pointing out this peripheral fact, or the relative poverty of the poachers themselves for that matter, does little to address concerns over elephant populations.

Likewise, murder rates spike up enormously as population densities increase, but I have yet to see anyone side-step the inherent wrongness of murder by pointing this out. One would think a group of persons who have all sworn an oath to defend the constitution of our land could be held to at least as high of a standard as the general public who has sworn no such thing.

What point are you trying to make?

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@OCCOM BILL,

Quote:

I'm thinking GeorgeOB1 is being a bit defensive of the military,

Geeze, ya think that's possible, OB?

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@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

More elephants are illegally taken by poachers in lands where the elephants are more plentiful too. Pointing out this peripheral fact, or the relative poverty of the poachers themselves for that matter, does little to address concerns over elephant populations.

Likewise, murder rates spike up enormously as population densities increase, but I have yet to see anyone side-step the inherent wrongness of murder by pointing this out. One would think a group of persons who have all sworn an oath to defend the constitution of our land could be held to at least as high of a standard as the general public who has sworn no such thing.

What point are you trying to make?

Perhaps you would then illuminate us with your foolproof program for preserving elephants , or eliminating crime, even among populations that should know, and behave, better.

Oaths to defend the Constitution are generally ineffective in persuading powerful Senators not to add self-serving earmarks to legislation or take financial payoffs from important constituents. They don't do much to restrain horny young men in close proximity to sometimes willing temptation either. Neither behavior is admirable, but both are common. Despite this the general incidence of crime in the military is a good deal lower than that in comparative populations elsewhere.

What point are you trying to make ?

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"Oh yeah, well look how bad those guys are!"--is the most impoverished form of argument.

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@Setanta,

I think that depends on what the argument is about.

Frankly, I don't know what the argument here in this thread is or has been.

That rape in or outside military organizations is bad is beyond doubt. That rape and other crimes do occur in military is also beyond doubt. What is not clear is what is the reality behind the statistics quoted at the start of this thread. Is the incidence of rape in the military higher or lower than that in comparable populations or situations? That question is far from clear. It certainly bears on the question of what conclusions one should draw from the quoted - and rather vague - statistics.

To the extent that such behaviors are a predictable response to the age distribution and physical circumstances of military organizations, then we have an argument for excluding women from the military - something I suspect very few posters here would support.

To the extent that it reflects some correctable defect in the structure or behavior of military organizations, then we have a different - and far more complex situation involving both corrective remedies and their usually unamnticipated side effects.

I suspect the incidence of rape is very low in the Navy Submarine force. Is that because submariners are better behaved, or is it because they don't assign women to submarines? (Actually, I never met a submariner that I really liked.)

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

I think that depends on what the argument is about.

Frankly, I don't know what the argument here in this thread is or has been.

Maybe there is no really argument to be made. Maybe the point is to be aware. Perhaps the point is to gain some sort of sympathy for a group of people who are already at great risk being raped by the people they are supposed to trust.

I think that you see me a liberal post a topic with the obvious subtext that this is totally bad and are so used to arguing with us damn liberals that you organically fill the role of antagonist. Why make this about left and right? Why make this about anti/pro military? It's just petty and stupid.

I'm sure a service women that gets raped expects the support of all people independent of ideology.

The point is that it's ultra sad. You're right about the salient question, and I don't know what is to be done to fix this.

T
K
O

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

To the extent that such behaviors are a predictable response to the age distribution and physical circumstances of military organizations, then we have an argument for excluding women from the military

Listen you silly silly citizens, if you don't like the crimes committed in your neighborhood, then just move away damn it!

Gob1, does it just come naturally to you or do you strive to outdo all previous inanities?

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

To the extent that such behaviors are a predictable response to the age distribution and physical circumstances of military organizations

That is part of it, but these men and women are part of the military culture, where aggression is a huge part of the culture. There are some who have this naive idea that aggression can be taught as being of value but then also convince that aggression has no part of intimate and/or sexual relationship....that there is a switch that can be turned on/off ....on the job/off the job. This does not work, soldiers are soldiers 24/7.

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@Diest TKO,

Diest TKO wrote:

I don't know what is to be done to fix this.

Eliminating women from combat units would fix it instantly. Under current conditions the military can fill its needs without them. However, in the long term that isn't so clear.

Natural self-selection tends to put women in the military in jobs they can do well, and the number of such jobs is growing. However, simply applying the contemporary prejudices of political correctitude to something as unique and problematic as warfighting organizations is an invitation to unanticipated side effects. A complex situation.

Perhaps we should figure out how to protect Bills elephants first.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

This does not work, soldiers are soldiers 24/7.

There seem to be plenty that return and are fairly reliable, honest, caring citizens, not overly prone to rape, murder and mayhem, but just to be on the safe side, I think that after they have done their job, they should be all be terminated.

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

I don't know what is to be done to fix this.

Ummmm, enforce the law. When slimeballs are allowed to get away with murder, rape and torture, it's quite natural that those same slimeballs will continue along the path of murder, rape and torture.

It's odd that the vaunted US system of justice puts people away for life after "three strikes" but for the military, there's the prevalent "awwww, give it another go" mentality often accompanied by a promotion and some piece of gaudy shiny tin.

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@OCCOM BILL,

Quote:

I'm thinking GeorgeOB1 is being a bit defensive of the military, and would do well to clarify how he thinks this problem should be dealt with.

Which do see as worse, Bill, being a bit defensive of the military for rape or being a bit defensive of the military for napalming villages, torturing innocents, carpet bombing innocents, spreading cluster bombs, depleted uranium and mines around for children to play with and farmers to cultivate?

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Rape & the U.S. Millitary

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