Gay Marriage Vote Passes in DC City Council

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

The earth was never thought flat.

Revisionist.

This explains a lot about you spendi.
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@Diest TKO,

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I'd add that the AAP has studied children raised by homosexuals

AAP ? Alien Abducted People ? Arse Ailment Prevention ? Australian Associated Press ? Just how amerocentric are you ?

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Simply put, being gay doesn't make your kid gay.

It certainly puts it on the list of possible lifestyles and that is not a good thing.

1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

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This explains a lot about you spendi.

After that sort of remark the correct procedure is to snort, or haruummph, slam the door behind you and have the clicks of your heels in the corridor fade away into a silence.

After that those still at the table have a guffawing fest.

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@Ionus,

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AAP ?

American Academy of Pediatrics

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It certainly puts it on the list of possible lifestyles and that is not a good thing.

Having homosexual parents is not what puts it on the list of possible lifestyles - the fact that it IS a potential reality for every single person in life, puts it on the list of possible lifestyles.
There's nothing anyone can do to change that for anyone.

Ionus - do you have kids? What if one of your kids were homosexual? Would you reject your child for being what s/he is? Would you accuse any of the homosexual people in his or her life of teaching him to be homosexual by setting that example? Or would you understand that that's just who s/he is?

I don't understand what you all want these people to do. The fact is that they are who and what they are- just like you are who and what you are.
What are they supposed to do for the rest of their lives after they discover their sexual preference is at odds with what you believe it should be?
Do you really expect them to have to forego being able to participate in life by loving another person , or having a family because they are homosexual? How does that help the situation or lead to any sort of solution for anyone?
And if they are good and thoughtful people who happen to be homosexual, do you really think it's better for children who have no one who loves them in their lives to continue to have no one who loves them in their lives instead of a good and thoughtful person who just happens to be homosexual?

That seems so harsh. What did they do to deserve being ostracized?
And I have a question for the Christians participating on this thread. Is it any more of a sin to sit in judgment and be unloving and unforgiving (if you think there's something to forgive) of people than it is to be homosexual in your view? Because I think it is. I think it's my job as a Christian to approach people with love and not judgment. At least that's what I learned in my church.

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@aidan,

aidan wrote:

Quote:
AAP ?

American Academy of Pediatrics

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It certainly puts it on the list of possible lifestyles and that is not a good thing.

Having homosexual parents is not what puts it on the list of possible lifestyles - the fact that it IS a potential reality for every single person in life, puts it on the list of possible lifestyles.
There's nothing anyone can do to change that for anyone.

Ionus - do you have kids? What if one of your kids were homosexual? Would you reject your child for being what s/he is? Would you accuse any of the homosexual people in his or her life of teaching him to be homosexual by setting that example? Or would you understand that that's just who s/he is?

I don't understand what you all want these people to do. The fact is that they are who and what they are- just like you are who and what you are.
What are they supposed to do for the rest of their lives after they discover their sexual preference is at odds with what you believe it should be?
Do you really expect them to have to forego being able to participate in life by loving another person , or having a family because they are homosexual? How does that help the situation or lead to any sort of solution for anyone?
And if they are good and thoughtful people who happen to be homosexual, do you really think it's better for children who have no one who loves them in their lives to continue to have no one who loves them in their lives instead of a good and thoughtful person who just happens to be homosexual?

That seems so harsh. What did they do to deserve being ostracized?
And I have a question for the Christians participating on this thread. Is it any more of a sin to sit in judgment and be unloving and unforgiving (if you think there's something to forgive) of people than it is to be homosexual in your view? Because I think it is. I think it's my job as a Christian to approach people with love and not judgment. At least that's what I learned in my church.

I accept your points. I have no problem with homosexuals out of the closet. They can have all the rights of all other citizens. I just personally would like the gay community to admit that the population of gays in the closet is more than they living a lie; it is a lie to every person that the closeted gay wants to have believing that they are straight. Being gay is not like being a Jew in 1942 Berlin. So, the whole closet thing is just promulgating a big lie with one's life and is unethical to every person that they interact with, in my opinion.

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@aidan,

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Having homosexual parents is not what puts it on the list of possible lifestyles

Of course it is...having a train driver dor a parent puts it on the list of possible lifestyles...having a parent with a PhD in Physica puts it on the list of possible lifestyes...living in a trailer park puts it on the list of possible lifestyles....

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I don't understand what you all want these people to do.

I dont want them to do anything...I want politicans to get off their fat arses and draught laws that give the same legal rights as a married couple to people who are in a relationship without calling it marriage. Why cant homosexual couples have defactos ? Because they are busy struggling against reality.

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having a family because they are homosexual?

They do have a family. They cant have kids because they are different sexes. Again, this is their struggle against reality.

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And if they are good and thoughtful people who happen to be homosexual,

And if they are bad and thoughtless people who happen to be homosexual, they will then scream discrimination.

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What did they do to deserve being ostracized?

Nothing. That is why they are not being ostracised.

Ostracize Meaning and Definition
(v. t.) To banish from society; to put under the ban; to cast out from social, political, or private favor; as, he was ostracized by his former friends.
(v. t.) To exile by ostracism; to banish by a popular vote, as at Athens.

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I think it's my job as a Christian to approach people with love and not judgment. At least that's what I learned in my church.

It would be more appropriate to think about not judging homosexuals as some sort of noble cause.

1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

I would like a repsonse to the questions and points I raised here :
http://able2know.org/topic/138900-14#post-3938112

Is it your policy to avoid the truth ?

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@Foofie,

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I accept your points. I have no problem with homosexuals out of the closet. They can have all the rights of all other citizens. I just personally would like the gay community to admit that the population of gays in the closet is more than they living a lie; it is a lie to every person that the closeted gay wants to have believing that they are straight. Being gay is not like being a Jew in 1942 Berlin. So, the whole closet thing is just promulgating a big lie with one's life and is unethical to every person that they interact with, in my opinion.

Agreed. Especially if they use someone and marry that person of the opposite sex to present themselves as heterosexual and appear 'normal'. My friend found out her father was a closeted homosexual when she was thirty years old.
And it wasn't because he came clean - he'd probably have gone to his grave having lied to and betrayed his family for forty years.
The only reason anyone in her family found out is because her mother walked in on him in the act. I can't even describe how detrimental that has been to her mental health in terms of her ability to retain any sort of trust in human nature.

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@Ionus,

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Of course it is...having a train driver dor a parent puts it on the list of possible lifestyles...having a parent with a PhD in Physica puts it on the list of possible lifestyes...living in a trailer park puts it on the list of possible lifestyles....

that's right and if your parent is not a train driver or PhD in physics or living in a trailer park all of those things are still on the list of possible lifestyles for anyone.
That's my point.

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I want politicans to get off their fat arses and draught laws that give the same legal rights as a married couple to people who are in a relationship without calling it marriage. Why cant homosexual couples have defactos ? Because they are busy struggling against reality.

Maybe you're struggling against reality if you want people to have the same exact thing as everyone else but have them call it something else.
How silly is that - 'Oh yes, she can have this lemon meringue pie just like me, but I want her to call it chocolate cake' -and that'll serve some sort of purpose?! What?! To convince yourself that she isn't in fact having the same thing you are? Talk about struggling against reality...

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And if they are bad and thoughtless people who happen to be homosexual, they will then scream discrimination.

But that's not who I was talking about. I was talking about good and thoughtful people.

From your own definition:

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ostracize:to cast out from social, political, or private favor

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It would be more appropriate to think about not judging homosexuals as some sort of noble cause.

If you think it's appropriate to think about not judging homosexuals (or any other people) as some sort of noble cause, as you say, maybe you should adopt it.

I don't think it's a noble cause. I think it's just the way that I was taught in my church to treat people-it's not my job to judge them.

And just as you press Diest for an answer, I'd love an answer to my question: If you had a homosexual child would you reject him or her? Would you make fun of his/her sexual practices? Would you expect your own child to forego having a family and committed relationship (whatever you might want to call it)?

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They do have a family. They cant have kids because they are different sexes. Again, this is their struggle against reality.

A lot of people in heterosexual marriages can't have kids. They struggle against that reality by adopting. Everyone struggles against some reality. Why do we shove some peoples' reality down their throats while we do everything we possibly can to make other peoples' reality less lonely and more livable?

That's my question. Because Foofie had a good point. We expect people to be honest, knowing that if they do - they'll have it shoved right back down their throats.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

Being gay is not like being a Jew in 1942 Berlin.

Actually, being a gay in 1942 Berlin, was very much like being a Jew in 1942 Berlin.

Both were put to death in the camps.

Textbook irony.
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@Ionus,

You seem to think you made some points in this post. I certainly don't see any that merit real discussion. All the same, I'll play along...

Ionus wrote:

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If people support the same thing for different reasons, then why in the **** am I supposed to take you seriously when you group all of women together as to why they would support this?
Are you familiar with the word people ? Here is a definition :
Definitions of people on the Web:
(plural) any group of human beings (men or women or children) collectively;
You see now ? Remember when you had to draw the circles to logiocally work out what was a part of what ? Remember that the circle called people had men circles and women circles inside it ? Well take the female circle, and draw another circle inside of that. We will call this the women who support homosexuality circle. Now do you see ? Below is my original statement :

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Ionus : You know why so many women support homosexuals ?

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You simply do not understand this topic.
You have identified the problem, you have attributed it to the wrong one of us.

Your logic is flawed. For one, you are still ignoring that people can support
this for multiple reasons that have nothing to do with gender. Further, the reason you've presented for women to support this is totally looney and far from the common sense and practical reasons that are more likely.

Ionus wrote:

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Those statistics were contrary to your claim of +50%.
I am certain someone as clever as you will be able to prove that...I would hate to think you made it up. Can you show me where I claimed that ? I am certain if you were wrong you would apologise rather than be thought of as arrogant AND stupid .

You said:

Ionus wrote:

You know why so many women support homosexuals ? Most women at some stage experiment with other women.

Emphasis mine. You understand what the word "most" means right? What you wrote says that +50% of women have experimented with other women, feel guilty and that is why they support same sex marriage. for future reference, you don't have the poker face needed to try and call my cards with a bluff.

I accept your concession and apology.

Ionus wrote:

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I want the law to apply equally for all citizens!
You do ? Marriage for Mulims and Mormans ? Many wives and one husband ? After all, why shouldnt a woman marry a man if she wants to...who cares if he is already married. If men can marry men and women can marry women then why not ? Next time you have a daisy chain at your house, get all the men to marry each other. Lovely !!

If polygamy ever comes into law, all I have to say is that if one man can take many wives, then one woman should be able to take many husbands. The only real concern I'd have is tax fraud. Otherwise, I simply don't care. Let those who want polygamy fight their own fight and let their arguments rest on their own. It is not all or nothing. We don't have to establish why practice B should be allowed for practice A to happen. They aren't related.

Ionus wrote:

There are not enough children for the heterosexual parents who want them and you want to give them to homosexual parents ? What will that teach them about relationships ? Daddy loves Daddy ? Mummy loves Mummy ? Perhaps you are saying children dont learn from their parents ?

Gay adoption and gay marriage are separate topics, but to answer your question: Yeah, I do want a child being raised in a gay household to learn that their parents lover each other. Absolutely.

Ionus wrote:

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you show me a measurable way that we could see how all married couples are affected negatively by this.
You are dumb beyond belief !! You are proposing change, you have to gurantee the safety of the changes, you have to come up with a way of accurately measuring damage to allay peoples (remember the big circle ?) concerns. This called engineering and you dont build a bridge and hten ask someone to prove it isnt save. That is your job before you sign off on it. Do you see now ?

If we are going to use you analogy, here's how it actually goes. If Gay marriage is a bridge and we want to see if it is "safe" it doesn't make sense for the PE to sigh off on the bridge and declare it unsafe when they have zero data. If however, somebody one day decided that they were willing to take the risk and build the bridge anyways, we'd know a lot in the future about if it was safe. As is, many countries and states have passed gay marriage into law. Because of that, we already can observe that the bridge is safe. Certainly it was a risk on that first bridge, but it paid off. In real engineering, we do lab experiments, and we can assume that the lab produces data that can be used to make design choices. The world is a lab, and the lab is refuting what anti-gay rights people like yourself are putting on paper.

My physics teacher used to always remind us, that it does matter if you calculate how far you can throw the ball, when you throw it, it will go exactly as far as it was supposed to.

Ionus wrote:

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Precious Ionus,
You think you are a heterosexual ? Thats the spirit !!

Gender bating. You've already done this line in other threads. Boring.

T
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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

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Do you think you can teach a child to be homosexual Ionus?
Do you think you can teach a child about heterosexual relationships when Daddy loves Daddy ?

Yes. See AAP, again.

You know homosexuals are raised in heterosexual homes. If being raise by homosexuals will make a child gay, why do homosexuals come out of heterosexual homes? (I await a gloriously idiotic but entertaining reply)

The data again sides with me on this.
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@MontereyJack,

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can you say "misogyny"?

I can try Jack.

We have a lovely barmaid in the pub. She works two nights a week. She is 21 and the single mother of a 4 year old lad.

Last night she had a bandage on her arm just above the elbow. I didn't ask what injury she had suffered. But someone else did and I heard her reply. She had had a "tube" infibulated. She was asked what for and she repied "contraception".

My misogyny was aroused. It seems that her beautiful body had been invaded by her doctor so that her current boyfriend, not the father of her child, could bang away at her to his heart's content without him having to suffer any inconveniences or take any risks.

She had been "spayed" like they do with cats. And she accepted this situation as if it was perfectly normal. Which no well brought up young lady would ever dream of doing believing, and quite rightly, that contraception ( a horrible anti-life word) is a man's business.

I told her to have the thing removed immediately and that if her boyfriend, who no doubt claims to love her, doesn't like it she should get a fresh boyfriend who cares for her properly. I also told her to change her doctor.

I assume my misogyny is not quite the same as your's is. With mine I have to risk being unpopular, as I was, whereas with your's you get to sound oh so caring and compassionate simply by asserting someone else is misogynistic.

I refer you to Ms Greer's two books--The Female Eunuch and Sex and Destiny--so you can find out what the word really means other than an easily blurted insult when no other response comes to mind.

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@Diest TKO,

Diest TKO wrote:

Foofie wrote:
Being gay is not like being a Jew in 1942 Berlin.

Actually, being a gay in 1942 Berlin, was very much like being a Jew in 1942 Berlin.

Both were put to death in the camps.

Textbook irony.
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While correct, my original point has been misconstrued, due possibly to my not communicating with the needed detail.

Being a gay in the U.S. in the 21st century (so far), is not like being a Jew or gay in 1942 Berlin. I think I have now corrected the statement to be correct.

1 Reply

@aidan,

Quote:

that's right and if your parent is not a train driver or PhD in physics or living in a trailer park all of those things are still on the list of possible lifestyles for anyone. That's my point.

Possible and probable are two different things. You do know that right ?

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Maybe you're struggling against reality if you want people to have the same exact thing as everyone else but have them call it something else.

You are struggling against reality if you think Daddy can get Daddy pregnant. Of course it is not the same thing.

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'Oh yes, she can have this lemon meringue pie just like me, but I want her to call it chocolate cake'

As a female do you have a weight problem because your analogy is bizarre.

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But that's not who I was talking about. I was talking about good and thoughtful people.

You were talking about them as though the alternate was impossible.

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If you think it's appropriate to think about not judging homosexuals (or any other people) as some sort of noble cause, as you say, maybe you should adopt it.

But I dont see it as a noble cause...you do.

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I don't think it's a noble cause.

We will let others decide if you are being sensible.

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If you had a homosexual child would you reject him or her?

No.

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Would you make fun of his/her sexual practices

Yes, as I do with all homosexuals I consider my friends.

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Would you expect your own child to forego having a family and committed relationship (whatever you might want to call it)?

I would expect them to forgo children.

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we shove some peoples' reality down their throats..... they'll have it shoved right back down their throats.

Your objection to and obsession with fellatio has been noted.

1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

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Your logic is flawed. For one, you are still ignoring that people can support this for multiple reasons that have nothing to do with gender.

Damn youre stupid. You want some big grey morass so nothing will be debated except how righteous you are and how we should thank you for being so lovely. I was dividing along gender lines because the reasons are different. Why would anyone believe you that sex has nothing to do with homosexuality ?

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Further, the reason you've presented for women to support this is totally looney and far from the common sense and practical reasons that are more likely.

Which is a big secret that you keep to yourself...

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Most women at some stage experiment with other women.

You are going to have to start living your life above your groin. Experiments do not have to be physical. many women experiment with the psychological aspect of homosexuality, the emotions, the possible lifestyle. Combine this with the physical, add to that people lie in sex surveys, and I will take my opinion before yours. Again, show me where I said the majority of women have sexual relations with other women or apologise.

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They aren't related.

Of course they are related. Acceptance of one leads to the line being drawn further along. This allows others to make their argument more mainstream. You dont think you would be arguing to loosen marriage if it wasnt already damaged do you ?

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The only real concern I'd have is tax fraud.

Clearly you know nothing about the societies where this has taken place.

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Gay adoption and gay marriage are separate topics,

No they are not. Only a fool would think one wont lead to the other.

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If we are going to use you analogy, here's how it actually goes. If Gay marriage is a bridge and we want to see if it is "safe" it doesn't make sense for the PE to sigh off on the bridge and declare it unsafe when they have zero data. If however, somebody one day decided that they were willing to take the risk and build the bridge anyways, we'd know a lot in the future about if it was safe. As is, many countries and states have passed gay marriage into law. Because of that, we already can observe that the bridge is safe. Certainly it was a risk on that first bridge, but it paid off. In real engineering, we do lab experiments, and we can assume that the lab produces data that can be used to make design choices. The world is a lab, and the lab is refuting what anti-gay rights people like yourself are putting on paper.

This more than anything shows your inablity to understand. If you build an unsafe bridge it will colapse and people being allowed to use it will only create the impression that it is safe. By the time homosexual marriages do the damage, how do you propose we windback that ?

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Gender bating. You've already done this line in other threads. Boring.

Is there another reason for calling me precious ? Something not Freudian in nature ? Perhaps you thought I was aidan...

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@Diest TKO,

You seem incapable of distinguishing anything. According to you all people support homosexual marriages for exactly the same reason. There is no difference between homosexuals anywhere. So how do we get the classic piece of stupidity put out by Psychiatrists that we are all a little homosexual and all homosexual are a little heterosexual ?

By not distinguishing the causes, something you are loathe to or simply cant understand, you end up with a mush that cant be analysed. Some people are born with the body of one sex and the brain of another. They are normal, they just have a disability. Then we have homosexuals who for one reason or another are manufactured. This can be early childhood experimentation than takes away stigma and it is easier to get an ugly of the same sex that an attractive of the opposite. it can be due to being molested, having an insecure mother who holds you naked too much and too far into childhood.

There are many reasons why but you dont want to look at them because you are blinded by stupidity and a nazi style approach where anyone disagreeing is a foul low life who should be put in the ovens.

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Quote:

Possible and probable are two different things. You do know that right ?

Yes. So are you saying that if someone's parent is a train driver or a PhD in physics or living in a trailer park - it is probable their child will choose to follow in their footsteps? I wouldn't even give you that much less the point I think you're trying to make that if someone has a homosexual parent it is probable they too will be homosexual. I don't think it's a matter of parenting at all.

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As a female do you have a weight problem because your analogy is bizarre.

You're funny. As a female, do I have a weight problem? What does being female have to do with weight problems? You want to put everything on us poor females.
Actually the only weight problem I have is sometimes I get busy and forget to eat and I find myself losing weight without really meaning to and I don't realize it until my clothes start feeling all loose and baggy. I've been the same size since I was sixteen years old - 5'4 and 121 pounds- except once when I hit my all time high of 140 when I was nine months pregnant.

But I do love food and lemon or chocolate cake or pie are favorites of mine.

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But I dont see it as a noble cause...you do.

Not really, I just see it as the right thing to do. There are other causes I'm more passionate about - like adoption.

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Your objection to and obsession with fellatio has been noted.

You have been good for a few laughs tonight. You think I object to but am obsessed with fellatio? Interesting - but slightly overstated-so wrong on both counts.

You know - I was gonna help you out with one of the points you were trying to make to Diest that I actually agreed with...not that you needed a woman's help of course, but I did think you had a point at one point. But since you've intimated that I might be stupid (don't know the difference between possible and probable), fat, and/or sexually inhibited at the same time I'm obsessed with putting things in my mouth - all in one post for goodness sake - I have to consider further whether I want to agree with you in any way on anything. If I do it's only because the point you raised was such an interesting one, and I believe valid, and no one else has expanded upon it.

Have a good night Ionus.

1 Reply

@aidan,

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it is probable their child will choose to follow in their footsteps?

Of course it is.

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You want to put everything on us poor females.

What a blantantly pathetic attempt to sway females to your side. Poor, pathetic, little, dumb, overworked underpayed females. Can you hear violins playing a sad melody ? How cynical and corrupt of you to play that card.

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I just see it as the right thing to do.

Noble 1
Definition: Possessing eminence, elevation, dignity, etc.; above whatever is low, mean, degrading, or dishonorable; magnanimous; as, a noble nature or action; a noble heart.
Of course you dont think of yourself as noble. You and atheist are just arguing for the sake of it.

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You think I object to but am obsessed with fellatio? ....they'll have it shoved right back down their throats..... we shove some peoples' reality down their throats

Interesting choice of words. little bit of sexual domination on your mind ?

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'Oh yes, she can have this lemon meringue pie just like me, but I want her to call it chocolate cake' ......As a female, do I have a weight problem?

Fat is not the only wieght problem but it does seem to worry women more than men. An interesting anology given the range you had to choose from.

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I have to consider further whether I want to agree with you in any way on anything. If I do it's only because the point you raised was such an interesting one, and I believe valid, and no one else has expanded upon it.

So if I let you on top you will tell the truth otherwise you will lie ...why is that ? Emotions interfering with your judgement ?

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Now you're not even good for laughs anymore.

Just for your information - I don't need anyone on my 'side' - I say what I think if it's what I think regardless of who I think might agree with me or what anyone else thinks. To me that's the point of my participation on this forum. I gave up trying to make friends here a long time ago.

But what I was going to say Diest - is that I do believe that even though I don't believe living with homosexual parents would have any bearing on whether a child actually became homosexual or not - it would be more difficult for that child to 'learn' about the more everyday aspects of heterosexual interaction in a marriage having only watched the interaction in a homosexual marriage as an example or guide.

They wouldn't be observing interaction between a man and a woman for eighteen years. They'd be observing interaction between two people of the same gender. This would create differing expectations in what they might expect once they got into a relationship themselves with a person of the opposite gender (I believe).

Even having said that, I think it's better for them to have some example of a loving marriage and family relationship to learn from than none at all. And I guess, thinking about it - I myself would rather live in a happy home than an unhappy home, and probably most other people would too. If I had the choice of a happy, loving home with homosexual parents or an unhappy and abusive home with heterosexual parents - I know which one I'd pick- (the happy homosexual one - just in case anyone tries to put words in my mouth...oops there's that oral obsession again - gotta try to watch that around Ionus).

Just like if I had the choice of a good, inspiring teacher who was homosexual or an uninspiring and rule or detail driven teacher who was heterosexual - I know which one I'd pick.

3 Replies

Gay Marriage Vote Passes in DC City Council

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