Amanda Knox

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Will the Kercher vermin be able to steal Raffaele's inheritance before the European Court of Human Rights has a chance to overturn the verdict?

After the European Court of Human Rights overturns the verdict,

The ECHR can't overturn a national verdict.
(See more at the ECHR website)

If it rules that the Italian justice system did anything in violation of the European Convention on Human Rights, then the court could in theory order a retrial, or tell Italy to change its laws. In nearly all cases, the court only imposes fines or calls for subtle changes.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

If it rules that the Italian justice system did anything in violation of the European Convention on Human Rights, then the court could in theory order a retrial,

I don't see how that is different from "overturning a verdict".

In any case, the more (most) important question is, can civil damages be seized/transferred while a case is still on appeal to the European Court of Human Rights?

Or would the transfer of those funds have to wait until after the European Court of Human Rights had had its say in the case?

2 Replies

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

I don't see how that is different from "overturning a verdict".

That's definitely only your problem.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

In any case, the more (most) important question is, can civil damages be seized/transferred while a case is still on appeal to the European Court of Human Rights?

Or would the transfer of those funds have to wait until after the European Court of Human Rights had had its say in the case?

When was the civil trial? I didn't notice that.

1 Reply

@McTag,

A comment in the Guardian, with a different, mor American approach
Amanda Knox might get the retrial she deserves if anyone looks at these 3 facts

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

oralloy wrote:
I don't see how that is different from "overturning a verdict".

That's definitely only your problem.

It's certainly not a problem for me. The only person who seems to be complaining about my choice of terms, is you.

If you'd like to make a case that I should be using different terms, I'll listen to what you have to say.

If you choose not to explain which terms you think I should be using, I'm not going to worry about it. As far as I'm concerned, the terms I'm currently using are good enough to get my point across.

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

oralloy wrote:
In any case, the more (most) important question is, can civil damages be seized/transferred while a case is still on appeal to the European Court of Human Rights?
Or would the transfer of those funds have to wait until after the European Court of Human Rights had had its say in the case?

When was the civil trial? I didn't notice that.

The civil trial has been ongoing from 2007 until now. It is combined with the criminal trial.

The civil trial is actually what drives this farce. The Kerchers want to steal Raffaele's inheritance, and they don't care how many innocent people they send to prison in the process.

The combination of civil and criminal trials has also allowed the prosecution to bring illegal evidence into the trial. For instance, they are not "allowed" to use any of the statements that the Italian police beat out of Amanda. However, they got that freaky ex bar owner Lumumba to sue Amanda for having had those statements beaten out of her, and those statements were heard in court as part of his civil suit.

The combination of criminal and civil trial is also why the Kerchers are always able to argue in court that the defense should never be allowed to challenge any of the fraudulent evidence. Their lawsuit gives them standing to present such arguments in court.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

A comment in the Guardian, with a different, mor American approach
Amanda Knox might get the retrial she deserves if anyone looks at these 3 facts

Interesting that a call to focus on facts and evidence is called an American approach.

0 Replies

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

The civil trial has been ongoing from 2007 until now. It is combined with the criminal trial.

Any source for that?

If that really is so - it's complete against the Italian constitution (articles 101 and followings) Additionally, it wouldn't follow the codice di procedura penale and codice di procedura civile - something, any lawyer should know. I do wonder, why it hasn't been seen by Knox' lawyers.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

oralloy wrote:
The civil trial has been ongoing from 2007 until now. It is combined with the criminal trial.

Any source for that?

Here is an article that mentions the Kerchers' civil participation in the criminal trial:
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/31289964.html

Here is an article that mentions the freaky ex-bar-owner's civil participation in the criminal trial:
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-09-30/bar-owner-lumumba-hopes-knox-goes-back-to-prison/

This article briefly mentions the Kerchers' involvement in blocking all scrutiny of the fraudulent evidence in the first trial:
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Court-rejects-independent-review-of-Knox-888453.php

Quote:

The Kercher family's attorney, Francesco Maresca of Florence, argued, however, that the court already had plenty of material to review. "We all know that in all trials of this nature there are different analyses of forensic evidence made by the various expert witnesses," he said. "The court must now consider the seriousness and integrity of the experts' testimony."

This article briefly mentions the Kerchers' attempt to block all scrutiny of the fraudulent evidence in the second trial:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1339739/Amanda-Knox-appeal-Court-allows-review-DNA-evidence-used-convict-her.html

Quote:

Francesco Maresca, representing the Kercher family, said:''The arguments presented by the defence have all been played out in Oggi magazine (glossy Italian weekly) and we run the risk of never ending justice. If we accept this arguments then any trial could be blocked.'

This article briefly mentions the Kerchers' reaction when the second trial agreed to scrutinize a portion of the fraudulent evidence:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/12/18/italy.knox.appeal/

Quote:

Francesco Maresca, an attorney for the Kercher family, said he was "disappointed" with the decision, suggesting that the ruling was political in the face of pressure from the United States.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

If that really is so - it's complete against the Italian constitution (articles 101 and followings) Additionally, it wouldn't follow the codice di procedura penale and codice di procedura civile - something, any lawyer should know. I do wonder, why it hasn't been seen by Knox' lawyers.

I don't know enough to address your claim here about what the law says, but the Italian judiciary are a criminal outfit who have no regard for either facts or law. Legal arguments will be relatively pointless until this case gets to the European Court of Human Rights. All the Italian judges care about are the kickbacks that the Kerchers have promised them if they seize Raffaele's inheritance.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Nice articles.
But my question wasn't about any "civil participation" or similar but about the civil trial. You wrote that it was both.

I asked for a source, because it would be against all known legal procedures and against the Italian constitution. Something, which really should be known to any law student in the first semester (at least after it) but definitely to even the worst lawyer.

If this really had been so or still is so ... why didn't anyone else report about it?
It would be unique in law history!

oralloy wrote:

Legal arguments will be relatively pointless until this case gets to the European Court of Human Rights.

How, do you think, could it go to ECHR without legal arguments?

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

But my question wasn't about any "civil participation" or similar but about the civil trial. You wrote that it was both.

Civil participation makes it both.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

If this really had been so or still is so ... why didn't anyone else report about it?
It would be unique in law history!

This case has been rife with horrific abuses that go largely unreported. The media really has much to answer for.

Although it must be said that there was one reporter who did dare to speak the truth (though he has now been mostly silenced by the Italians).

Walter Hinteler wrote:

How, do you think, could it go to ECHR without legal arguments?

There will be plenty of legal arguments made to the ECHR.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Civil participation makes it both.

You do know that Italy doesn't have common law? One of the characteristic of European civil procedure is for instance that there isn't a "trial" as a single, temporally continuous presentation in which all
materials are made available to the adjudicator but proceedings in a
civil action on the Continent may be described as a series of isolated
conferences before the judge. Though criminal and civil cases are dealt with mostly in the same court houses, the "courts" (chambers, judges) are different.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

One of the characteristic of European civil procedure is for instance that there isn't a "trial" as a single, temporally continuous presentation in which all materials are made available to the adjudicator but proceedings in a civil action on the Continent may be described as a series of isolated conferences before the judge. Though criminal and civil cases are dealt with mostly in the same court houses, the "courts" (chambers, judges) are different.

The fact remains, Italy has combined the civil and criminal trials into one single trial.

That has allowed them to introduce illegal evidence into the trial (Lumumba's civil suit introducing the statements that the Italian police forced Amanda to say against her will).

It has allowed the Kerchers to argue in court that all fraudulent evidence should be blindly accepted with no scrutiny.

And it might potentially allow the Kerchers to steal Raffaele's inheritance (which has been their goal all along).

Your saying that it isn't done that way doesn't change the reality that it is in fact being done that way.

You might want to remember that Italy is a third-world hellhole. It is a mistake to think that they share the same standards that a civilized country would have.

If you are correct that what Italy is doing is illegal, that won't even be Italy's biggest violation in this case. It was a major human rights violation for Italy to hold Amanda and Raffaele in prison for four years while also denying them a speedy trial.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

I'm still waiting for your source to your claim that

Quote:

the civil trial has been ongoing from 2007 until now

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I'm still waiting for your source to your claim that

Quote:
the civil trial has been ongoing from 2007 until now

I gave you a large number of links just a few posts ago.

The links ranged from articles stating the existence of the civil proceedings, to outright quotes from when the Kerchers were abusing the civil proceedings to successfully argue that fraudulent evidence should be blindly accepted without any scrutiny.

I suppose I didn't quote everything that I could have, but I thought that a couple of the articles were short enough that a direct quote was unnecessary.

Here they all are again, more fully quoted:

Here is an article that mentions the Kerchers' civil participation in the criminal trial:

Quote:

Last Updated: Nov 21, 2008 at 4:12 AM PDT

ROME (AP) - A lawyer representing the family of a British student slain in central Italy said Monday he is seeking a total of $33 million in damages from three suspects in the case.

Francesco Maresca said Monday he wants damages from American student Amanda Knox, of Seattle, her Italian ex-boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito and Ivorian citizen Rudy Hermann Guede.

. . . .

Italian law allows victims of a crime, or their family members, to attach a civil lawsuit to a criminal trial to seek damages. Maresca said the request was attached to Guede's trial but will be extended to Sollecito and Knox if they are indicted.

The lawyer had attached the civil lawsuit when the proceedings opened in September, but Monday was the first time he asked the court to assign a specific sum.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/31289964.html

Here is an article that mentions the freaky ex-bar-owner's civil participation in the criminal trial:

Quote:

Last updated Mon 30 Sep 2013

The bar owner who was falsely accused by Amanda Knox of murdering Meredith Kercher was present in court today.

Patrick Lumumba said he was there to "reiterate that Amanda [Knox] is guilty" and said he hopes she goes back to prison.

The Florence court rejected a motion by Knox's lawyers to exclude Lumumba from the new appeals trial as a civil participant, a status that allows him to seek further damages.

His lawyer says Lumumba is owed more than 103,000 euros (£86,000) in legal fees.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-09-30/bar-owner-lumumba-hopes-knox-goes-back-to-prison/

This article briefly mentions the Kerchers' involvement in blocking all scrutiny of the fraudulent evidence in the first trial:

Quote:

The Kercher family's attorney, Francesco Maresca of Florence, argued, however, that the court already had plenty of material to review. "We all know that in all trials of this nature there are different analyses of forensic evidence made by the various expert witnesses," he said. "The court must now consider the seriousness and integrity of the experts' testimony."

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Court-rejects-independent-review-of-Knox-888453.php

This article briefly mentions the Kerchers' attempt to block all scrutiny of the fraudulent evidence in the second trial:

Quote:

Francesco Maresca, representing the Kercher family, said:''The arguments presented by the defence have all been played out in Oggi magazine (glossy Italian weekly) and we run the risk of never ending justice. If we accept this arguments then any trial could be blocked.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1339739/Amanda-Knox-appeal-Court-allows-review-DNA-evidence-used-convict-her.html

This article briefly mentions the Kerchers' reaction when the second trial agreed to scrutinize a portion of the fraudulent
evidence:

Quote:

Francesco Maresca, an attorney for the Kercher family, said he was "disappointed" with the decision, suggesting that the ruling was political in the face of pressure from the United States.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/12/18/italy.knox.appeal/

P.S. Since I've had to quote some of the outrageous things spewed by that vile scumbag Lumumba, I would like to add to my post that it sure was a wonderful thing that the little freak lost his precious bar.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

I didn't know that the civil case was adjoint in 2008 and stand corrected.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Do you know if civil damages can be transferred (collected, seized, whatever the proper term is) after the verdict is final in Italy but while the case is still on appeal to the European Court of Human Rights?

1 Reply

@oralloy,

I think that it would be legally correct.

1 Reply

Amanda Knox alibi challenged after CCTV footage emerges from night of Meredith Kercher’s murder

Quote:

Amanda Knox’s alibi for the murder of the British student Meredith Kercher could now be in doubt after an Italian TV programme released CCTV footage which appears to show her on the night of the killing six and a half years ago.

The American, who was studying in the university city of Perugia at the time, has consistently denied the murder and said there is no evidence placing her at the home she then shared with Ms Kercher.

Yet black and white video footage has now emerged which the investigative programme Quarto Grado said was taken from a nearby security camera and time-stamped 8.53pm on 1 November 2007 - the night of the murder.
... ... ...

http://www.blitzquotidiano.it/wp/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/amanda_knox_quarto_grado_1.jpg

http://www.blitzquotidiano.it/wp/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/amanda_knox_quarto_grado_2.jpg

1 Reply

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