20
   

Amanda Knox

 
 
McTag
 
  3  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 02:44 am

Isn't it odd to have Americans arguing about miscarriage of justice in a foreign country?

Extraordinary rendition? Guantanamo Bay was built outside of the USA precisely so that Americans could miscarry justice.
OCCOM BILL
 
  0  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 02:44 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

Quote:
Virtually everyone in the U.S. is bought and paid for in some way

This statement right here sums up my problem, I think. I read this and asked myself, 'How old are you going to have to get to stop being silly and refuse to believe in peoples' inherent goodness?'
What pray tell does what you quoted have to do with believing in people's inherent goodness? And to answer your question; I neither think that refusal is necessary to be grown up; and hope never to grow up if it is.
aidan wrote:

My problem is that I can't imagine why these people would want to crucify this girl for something they truly don't believe or have evidence that she did.
Now that's just silly. I believe it is an exceedingly rare thing for prosecutors to intentionally go after the wrong guy. Not nearly as rare is mistakenly going after the wrong guy. More common still is bending the rules to go after the presumed right guy. No ridiculous conspiracy is necessary for this to be a travesty of justice.
aidan wrote:
Because if what the American press is saying that the Italian police and justice system has been willing to do to this girl- we better not travel anywhere outside of America. If someone ends up dead - we'll be their prime suspects and they'll MAKE it stick. That's what you're saying. Do you really believe that?
Sorry - I don't. I think she became a suspect for a reason.
Please do me a favor and never attempt to paraphrase me again. (I posted nothing that even remotely resembles that.)
OCCOM BILL
 
  0  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 02:57 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


Isn't it odd to have Americans arguing about miscarriage of justice in a foreign country?

Extraordinary rendition? Guantanamo Bay was built outside of the USA precisely so that Americans could miscarry justice.
Odd, perhaps if you have your head up your ass and haven't noticed through many years of membership the percentage of "Americans" who usually agree with your politics regarding foreign affairs. National Identity should affect no intelligent person's opinion in this discussion. Save perhaps an Italian, embarrassed by his country's lack of civil protections... though I really don't see why even he would feel oblgated to carry that load.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 02:58 am
@OCCOM BILL,
Okay I won't try to paraphrase you, because I obviously read and write a different sort of English than you do.

When someone can be bought and paid for that says to me their morals and integrity are for sale. That says to me that their morals are only skin deep and as valuable to them as whatever anyone is offering them for them. So when you say, 'Virtually everyone in the U.S. is bought and paid for in some way' which I am not paraphrasing - you DID say those exact words- that says to me that you believe that Americans have morals that are for sale...that translates to me that they are not inherently good. And it seems you not only believe that about Americans, you believe it about Italians (at least those who are involved in this case).

What I'm saying is that I think the fact that she's American is probably the least important aspect in terms of the probablity of her culpability of this crime to the investigators of this crime and as an explanation as to why she's in this mess.
Americans seem to want to make it first and foremost. I don't believe that to be true.

OCCOM BILL
 
  0  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 03:04 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

Okay I won't try to paraphrase you, because I obviously read and write a different sort of English than you do.

When someone can be bought and sold that says to me their morals are for sale. That says to me that their morals are only skin deep and as valuable to them as whatever anyone is offering them for them. So when you say, 'Virtually everyone in the U.S. is bought and paid for in some way' which I am not paraphrasing - you DID say those exact words- that says to me that you believe that Americans have morals that are for sale...that translates to me that they are not inherently good. And it seems you not only believe that about Americans, you believe it about Italians (at least those who are involved in this case).
That still has NOTHING to do with your conclusion about believing inherent good equals not grown up.

aidan wrote:
What I'm saying is that I think the fact that she's American is probably the least important aspect in terms of the probablity of her culpability of this crime to the investigators of this crime and as an explanation as to why she's in this mess.
I would agree with this statement completely.
aidan wrote:
Americans seem to want to make it first and foremost. I don't believe that to be true.
Neither do I. Shrugs
aidan
 
  1  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 03:18 am
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:
That still has NOTHING to do with your conclusion about believing inherent good equals not grown up.
Sorry, your quote just triggered thoughts about things my father has always said to me when he's been frustrated with my idealism like, 'When you start paying taxes you'll become a republican,' or 'When you've lived a few years, you'll change your tune...'
and I thought - 'When I grow up - I'll finally see things like the fact that everyone can be bought and paid for.'
Because I don't believe that.
No reflection on you.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 03:41 am
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:
These are facts, Robert. I suspect you knew very well what was referred to, and are choosing to be difficult.


The point is that you tossed in a subjective conclusion, which is the crux of your argument, and called the group "facts" to be disputed.

Without your subjective conclusion, there's not much to discuss. The notion that this is a miscarriage of justice is a subjective conclusion and not a fact and is pretty much what the whole discussion revolves around.
Francis
 
  3  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 05:02 am
Bill wrote:
Here in the States you look on with such disdain, her constitutional guarantees would never permit such a thrashing of due process rights to go uncorrected

Not only your assertions are quite premature as at least two other judiciary instances are possible before the sentencing become definitive, but they stand on moral high grounds you hardly are entitled to appropriate.

Here's some comments where, like myself, they do not comment on how Amanda is guilty or not:

Quote:
Nel tritacarne USA

La condanna di Amanda Knox per l’omicidio della ventunenne studentessa inglese Meredith Kercker è stata accolta negli USA da un’opinione pubblica ostile aizzata da tutti i massmedia che ne hanno fatto un atto di accusa contro il sistema giudiziario italiano "corrotto" ed in generale contro l’Italia in quanto tale. Il potere americano non tollera che un suo cittadino, un membro dell’Impero, venga giudicato e condannato da altri. I suoi militari per i crimini commessi non possono essere sottoposti ai loro giudici naturali. Nel caso del folle assassinio di venti cittadini sulla funivia del Cermis ad opera dei piloti forse drogati forse in vena di divertirsi a spese degli "indigeni" decollati da Aviano gli Usa non hanno permesso che si facesse giustizia e non hanno fatto giustizia. Il Congresso dopo aver stanziato 40 milioni di dollari per il risarcimento delle vittime si è rimangiato l’impegno ed ha costretto il Parlamento italiano a fare una legge apposita per tacitare le famiglie delle vittime. Nel caso del grave ferimento della nostra giornalista Giuliana Sgreena e dell’assassinio di Calipari in quello che è sembrato a tutti un vero e proprio agguato non solo il marines che ha sparato non è stato punito ma è venuto a pavoneggiarsi in Italia ed a bacchettare la giornalista che, anzicchè starsene a casa sua era andata in Iraq a metterlo nei guai. Una giornalista comunista ed antiamericana! Un famoso editorialista del New York Times ha accusato la giustizia italiana di essere simile a coloro che condannarono Giovanna D’Arco e l’Italia di essere un paese feudale, barbaro, incivile. Le critiche sono particolarmente pesanti dal momento che la condanna di Amanda è stata pronunziata da una giuria popolare che rappresenta il popolo italiano e non solo la Magistratura. La scelta dell’on.le Giulia Bongiorno, Presidente della Commissione Giustizia della Camera dei Deputati, non è finora bastata ad assicurare l’assoluzione e la scarcerazione di Amanda. Una importante senatrice americana è intervenuta sulla Clinton e sull’Ambasciata americana in Italia per sottrarre al più presto Amanda alla prigione. La On.le Bongiorno ne ha preannunziato la futura assoluzione di cui si dichiara certa!

I massmedia americani hanno tessuto l’elogio del loro sistema giudiziario al quale dovrebbero ispirarsi tutte le colonie dell’Impero. Una pretesa spocchiosa ed aberrante . Stiamo parlando di una "giustizia" che tiene in galera tre milioni di persone (come se in Italia avessimo seicentomila detenuti e non sessantamila!) ed altre tre milioni in libertà vigilata. Forse la più alta quantità di omicidi dell’intero pianeta. Basta essere poveri e commettere tre piccole infrazioni per potere essere condannati a tempo indeterminato e magari non uscire più dalla prigione. La forca funziona a pieno ritmo. In compenso, se sei miliardario e famoso, anche se uccidi la moglie praticamente sotto gli occhi di tutti e sei inseguito per diecine di chilometri da un elicottero della polizia potresti essere assolto! La cosa più importante per un imputato negli USA non è essere innocente ma avere i soldi per pagarsi uno studio legale costosissimo. La giustizia è amministrata in grande parte dagli studi legali che hanno un potere enorme. Purtroppo anche in Italia la professione forense sta subendo il contagio anglosassone. Tutto dipenderà dal processo e dall’abilità di Perry Mason. La destra italiana è fortemente tentata di cavalcare l’onda di indignazione americana ed israeliana per sferrare altri attacchi alla Magistratura italiana che vorrebbe processare Silvio Berlusconi. Il "Velino" di Capezzone (portavoce del Pdl) ha dato il via ad una campagna di fiancheggiamento e di denigrazione. Il Ministro della Giustizia italiana e lo stesso Berlusconi debbono prendere al più presto le distanze dai giudici di Perugia se non vorranno essere i reietti dell’Impero. I mille soldati mandati in Afghanistan non bastano a placare l’ira dei padroni della terra! Pietro Ancona


And my translation:

In the U.S. meat grinder

The conviction of Amanda Knox for the murder of twenty-one year old British student Meredith Kercker was received by a hostile U.S. public opinion stirred up by all the mass media.
They have made it an indictment of the Italian "corrupt" justice system and in general against Italy itself.
American power does not tolerate one of its nationals, a member of the Empire, to be judged and condemned by others.
The crimes committed by its military for cannot be subjected to their natural judges.
In the case of mad murder of twenty citizens of the cable car Cermis by pilots who, perhaps under drugs influence, perhaps in a mood to enjoy themselves at the expense of the "natives", took off from Aviano U.S. base, they have not allowed justice to be done and justice was not done.
The Congress having allocated 40 million dollars to compensate the victims has reneged the comittment and has forced the Italian Parliament to make a law to silence the families of the victims.
In the case of the serious wounding of our journalist Giuliana Sgrena and murder of Calipari in what appeared to everyone a real trap, not only the Marine who fired was not punished but came to show off in Italy and thrash the journalist, saying that rather than opens to sit at home (she) had gone to Iraq to get him into trouble.
A journalist and communist anti-American!
A famous columnist of the New York Times has accused the Italian judiciary to be like those who condemned Joan of Arc and said that Italy was a feudal, barbarian, uncivilized country.
Criticism has been particularly heavy since the conviction of Amanda has been delivered by a jury representing the Italian people and not just by the Judiciary system.
The choice of Mr. The Giulia Bongiorno, President of the Justice Commission of the Chamber of Deputies, has so far not been enough to secure the acquittal and release of Amanda.
An important U.S. senator intervened on Clinton and the Embassy in Italy U.S. in order to remove as soon as possible Amanda from prison. The Hon Bongiorno has foretold the future acquittal as certain!

The American mass media have praised their judicial system to which they should draw all the colonies of the Empire.
Alleged snooty and aberrant.
We are talking about a "justice" that takes three million people in jail (as if in Italy we had six hundred thousand and sixty thousand prisoners!)
And three million others on probation.
Perhaps the highest number of homicides in the world.
It just needs to be poor and commit three small infringements in order to be sentenced to an indefinite period and may not get out of jail anymore.
The gallows runs at full speed.
On the other hand, if you're a millionaire and famous, even if you kill your wife practically under the eyes of everyone then chased tens of kilometers from a police helicopter, you may be absolved!
The most important thing for a defendant in the U.S. is not innocence but have the money to pay for an expensive law firm.
Justice is administered in large part by law firms that have enormous power.
Unfortunately, even in Italy the legal profession is undergoing this Anglo-Saxon infection.
Everything will depend on the process and the ability of Perry Mason.
The Italian right is strongly tempted to ride the American and Israeli wave of outrage to launch other attacks on the judiciary that would prosecute Silvio Berlusconi.
The "Velino" in Capezzone (spokesman PDL) has launched a campaign of denigration and flanking.
The Italian Justice Minister and Berlusconi should as soon distance themselves from judges in Perugia as not be the rejects of the Empire.
The thousand soldiers sent to Afghanistan are not enough to appease the wrath of the masters of the world!
Peter Ancona
oralloy
 
  -2  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 07:57 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
On what site are you communicating on this?


Before I gave up trying to reason with Italians, all the sites I could find.



ossobuco wrote:
I am guessing most italians don't care, this is not in their headlights. Some may be biased against easy lay tourists (memories for me of mexico), and a few may marry such. Do you figure all italians in all regions are following every aspect of this trial?


No idea. But I know how awful the ones I've actually talked to are.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 07:58 am
@contrex,
contrex wrote:
One thing I do know - Oralloy is a classic example of a troll. He is just piggybacking on the discussion with his "All Italians are evil" crap, repeated ad infinitum. Never anything new, just the same old stuff.


If you don't want to be criticized for being evil, stop being evil.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 07:59 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
This jurisprudence you speak of is repugnant to any presumption of innocence, liberty or justice. These are facts, fool. Dispute them if you think you can.


That first sentence is not a fact. It's your subjective opinion.


Looks pretty factual to me.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 08:00 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
This statement right here sums up my problem, I think. I read this and asked myself, 'How old are you going to have to get to stop being silly and refuse to believe in peoples' inherent goodness?'

My problem is that I can't imagine why these people would want to crucify this girl for something they truly don't believe or have evidence that she did.


Regardless of why they would do it, it is quite clear that they in fact are doing it.




aidan wrote:
I can't imagine why they'd leak and print lies about her.


Yet the evidence clearly shows they did that.




aidan wrote:
It's much easier for me to imagine that what she said she did, and left evidence that she did holds some kernel of the truth of what happened, than that this poor, little totally innocent American girl is branded a murderer just for the fun of it


That is awful and despicable. You are willing to ignore the fact that Italy is maliciously prosecuting an innocent American?




aidan wrote:
Why would they have to add Amanda Knox who comes with a very prominent and promising Italian who's part and parcel of this scenario and so must be sacrificed along with her?


The evidence is quite clear that they in fact are doing just that.




aidan wrote:
Because if what the American press is saying that the Italian police and justice system has been willing to do to this girl- we better not travel anywhere outside of America. If someone ends up dead - we'll be their prime suspects and they'll MAKE it stick. That's what you're saying. Do you really believe that?
Sorry - I don't. I think she became a suspect for a reason.


The reason certainly has no relation to the evidence (which does not indicate in any way that she had any part in this).
oralloy
 
  -2  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 08:00 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
Isn't it odd to have Americans arguing about miscarriage of justice in a foreign country?


Is the term miscarriage of justice broad enough to cover malicious prosecution of a clearly innocent person?



McTag wrote:
Extraordinary rendition? Guantanamo Bay was built outside of the USA precisely so that Americans could miscarry justice.


Balderdash. That was set up so we could capture and detain enemy fighters.
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  4  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 08:13 am
If it wasn't obvious before that oralloy is a troll, it is now. Boy what a jerk.


oralloy
 
  -2  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 08:30 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
Without your subjective conclusion, there's not much to discuss. The notion that this is a miscarriage of justice is a subjective conclusion and not a fact and is pretty much what the whole discussion revolves around.


It is quite clear that there is no evidence to show she had anything to do with this, and that she has been maliciously prosecuted.

I wouldn't use the term miscarriage of justice simply because that would presume that this was an attempt at justice in the first place.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 08:32 am
@contrex,
contrex wrote:
If it wasn't obvious before that oralloy is a troll, it is now. Boy what a jerk.


Stop whining, Adolf. You want to be evil, you'll get denounced for being evil.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 08:36 am
@Francis,
Francis wrote:
Not only your assertions are quite premature as at least two other judiciary instances are possible before the sentencing become definitive, but they stand on moral high grounds you hardly are entitled to appropriate.


Italy has already kept her in prison for two years for something she clearly didn't do, and is keeping her there for a third year at least. It is hardly premature to criticize.

And any human has the right to criticize Italy for their atrocity.
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  3  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 09:18 am
oralloy, welcome to my ignore list.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  3  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 09:36 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
That is awful and despicable. You are willing to ignore the fact that Italy is maliciously prosecuting an innocent American?

I don't believe they are. And the fact that she's American doesn't make any difference to me at all. Which is as it should be, I'm sure you'll admit, as someone who is SO upset that you think her prosecution is in fact, malicious based on her nationality.

Why are you so sure that what you're reading in the American press is the truth? Because you know the people who are portraying her in America are the ones who have the most to gain by airbrushing this girl's image. Who have they interviewed - her mother and her friends? What do you think they're gonna say about her - that she would never hurt a fly, that she would never use drugs, that she would never be promiscuous...I'm sure her mother also thought she always flushed the toilet too - but apparently she didn't.

Its' extremely common for kids/young adults her age to be completely different people in front of their parents than they are in front of their friends.
But even if I did think she was totally innocent, in the scheme of things, I'd hardly call this an atrocity. Did you get this upset that Nelson Mandela was imprisoned in South Africa for twenty-seven years?

I don't mean to sound callous and if she's innocent, I certainly hope it comes out, and she's freed, but I can't look at the Italian justice system as being any more corrupt than our own until it's proved they did all this fabricating that the American press is saying they did.

OCCOM BILL
 
  -2  
Wed 16 Dec, 2009 10:09 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
These are facts, Robert. I suspect you knew very well what was referred to, and are choosing to be difficult.


The point is that you tossed in a subjective conclusion, which is the crux of your argument, and called the group "facts" to be disputed.

Without your subjective conclusion, there's not much to discuss. The notion that this is a miscarriage of justice is a subjective conclusion and not a fact and is pretty much what the whole discussion revolves around.
The crux of my argument are the facts that I repeated when High Seas challenged my foundation... and then again when you looked past her naked ad hominem to nit-pick my factual response. My conclusion is founded in the bedrock of the principle that the accused should be "Presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law." This principle simply cannot coexist in a system where a 1/3 of the fact-finders finding of not guilty can be ignored in route to a finding of guilt. Surely common sense mandates that 1/3 of jurors disagreement should constitute reasonable doubt. Not so in Italy.
 

Related Topics

Guilty murderer Amanda Knox - Question by contrex
Amanda Knox - Discussion by JTT
The Trial that JUST WON'T END - Question by michellesings
Amanda Knox conviction thrown out - Discussion by gungasnake
Multinational Murder Mystery - Discussion by wandeljw
Who killed Meredith Kercher? - Discussion by DylanB
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Amanda Knox
  3. » Page 8
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.08 seconds on 11/24/2024 at 09:43:40