20
   

Amanda Knox

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 7 Oct, 2011 09:37 pm
@aidan,
Well, I missed all that, the aftermath, just as well, with all my disapproval re the machinations of the trial and the city I like.

Knowing nothing, I'll guess there is a mother daughter war of long standing that has some import in all this, if I were writing a book. But enough others will do that.

Be well, Perugia.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Fri 7 Oct, 2011 09:39 pm
@aidan,
Well said, Aidan!
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 7 Oct, 2011 09:41 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
I don't understand where you are coming from.
I'd like to hear your gripes so we can talk.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 03:51 am
@Izzie,
Izzie wrote:
Well, you're not quite correct on that Oralloy - I saw the statement and was too horrified to respond immediately and it took me a while before I wished to address it. The same as before when you wished the US to nuke Italy and all it's residents.


I realize it's not your fault. I'm under a curse that makes everyone believe that I want to nuke every country on the planet.

But you'll not find any instance of me advocating a nuclear attack on Italy.

Attacks on Italy, yes. Probably more than enough to horrify you. But no nukes.



Izzie wrote:
You can and do talk to people more rationally, respectfully and more calmly when you choose to - but I feel that as with many threads - fury speaks out in unnecessary wording and it becomes a hurling match.


My response is based on what I am responding to.

Look at any post where I am hostile, and you'll find it is a response to a post that deserves a hostile response.



Izzie wrote:
but I 'aint gonna fight with you
and I know I'm not evil either.


Note that I've never called you evil. I do know the difference between an evil poster and a good poster.

You're a little misguided about the evil posters, but your heart is in the right place.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 03:53 am
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:
recently released murderer Amanda Knox returns to the US


The evidence has been clear from the beginning that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 03:59 am
@Sturgis,
Sturgis wrote:
You base things on age and how long someone has been in a country? That is truly daft.


Here's a thought: Let's base it on the fact that there has never been any evidence against Amanda and Raffaele, and the fact that the evidence has been clear from the beginning that Guede did it alone.



Sturgis wrote:
True, there turned out to be no actual physical evidence; but, I'd hesitate on calling the prosecutor a dirty old man or imply he was playing out some fantasy. He was a typical prosecutor, they have a job and that is to convict the person placed on trial. Did he handle it well? Clearly not. He's not that different from prosecutors in other jurisdictions (and in countries other), finding ways to get the media to turn the accused into a monster.


Actually, Mignini does have a bit of a screw loose with his belief that everything is an occult conspiracy.

But he is not primarily responsible for what happened. The blame for that goes to the Italian judges who ordered Amanda and Raffaele to spend the trial process in prison in violation of Italian and European law, and who went out of their way for so long to block the defense from challenging the fake evidence.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 04:09 am
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:
This is one of the better summaries I've seen -- seems to capture the ambiguity well of her not being some wholly-innocent angel, but also probably not actually being a murderer:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2011/10/searching-for-amanda-knox.html


Actually it is a very bad summary. The "not a wholly innocent angel" thing is just part of a campaign of slander to demonize Amanda. There isn't a bit of truth to it.

Plus, that part at the end about "how horrible it would be for Amanda to make money off her story" was beyond despicable. After having spent four years in prison for something they didn't do, with horrible people lying about them all over the internet, Amanda and Raffaele DESERVE to make many millions of dollars. Many tens of millions of dollars even.

It defies belief that sleazebag reporters who have relentlessly slandered innocent people are now aghast that the very media frenzy created by those sleazebag reporters might now serve to compensate their victims for their ordeal.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 04:13 am
@Sturgis,
Sturgis wrote:
Knox proved herself less than innocent when she decided to accuse a bartender of the crimes she was being charged with.


Your statement is factually inaccurate. She did not decide to do it. She was forced to do it by Italian Police officers who were hitting her in the head.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 04:28 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
How strange. Her roommate has just been brutally murdered and she says, 'I didn't have the best weekend'?! She just wants to feel better - so 'maybe we can go shopping for clothes'?!


She needed to go shopping for clothes because she had no change of clothes after having been locked out of her apartment.



aidan wrote:
No, I'm sorry. I can't say I've ever had my roommate murdered in the room next to mine or had to make up a lie sacrificing another person to save myself discomfort


Amanda did not make up any lie. She was told what to say and then forced to say it.



aidan wrote:
but this doesn't sound like the reaction of a normal person whose friend and roommate has just been found murdered.
She's totally immersed in her own selfish needs- Meredith and her demise are only mentioned as the cause of all the inconvenience it has heaped on Amanda.


Oh heaven forbid someone who is suddenly locked out of their home without a change of clothes would think about buying some new clothes.



aidan wrote:
And I'm really curious to know if any of these police interviews where she is being tortured into turning into an immoral and soulless betrayer of an innocent man are taped. Are they?
Can they really NOT have taped her interview in this day and age?


Of course they were taped. However, given the fact that the tapes show the Italian Police beating false statements out of innocent people, they have steadfastly refused to let anyone hear the tapes.



aidan wrote:
If anything, this letter convinces me more than ever that she lacks normal empathy and would be capable of murdering someone - and then go shopping for clothes - or lingerie, wasn't it - the next day?


It wasn't lingerie. It was normal clothes. And it was because she had no clothes to wear after having been locked out of her apartment.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 04:31 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
They could have suggested Hitler to me and if I hadn't been there, I'd have had to say, 'I WASN'T THERE! I DON'T KNOW!!!'


Oh nonsense. If the Italian Police were beating false statements out of you, you'd say what they told you to say also.



aidan wrote:
She first told them that she was there. That's the only reason they could have suggested that she saw ANYONE leaving the house.
Why did she say she was there if she wasn't?


Because the Italian Police would not stop hitting her in the head until she said what they wanted her to say.



aidan wrote:
She started the lying herself. WHY?


Wrong. Amanda did not lie even once.

A lie requires intent to deceive. Involuntary statements cannot be a lie.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 04:35 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
All I'm going to say is that there is something not right about this girl and this letter just reiterates that in my mind.
She doesn't seem to display normal empathy.


Says the person who callously condemns innocent people for having had false statements beaten out of them.

Oh dear. Look at the damage you just did to my irony detector. It just wasn't built to handle such large bursts.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  3  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 04:39 am
@oralloy,
the entire post (not just the line you quoted) was a jest

do you understand humour, it would make your interactions with human beings much easier
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 04:53 am
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:
There are lots and lots of jerky people -- especially 20-year-olds -- who are not murderers.

I won't argue against her jerkiness, I just think it's not enough to convict her of murder.


*I* will argue against it.

I assure you that the claims of callous behavior on Amanda's part are all lies.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 04:57 am
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:
the entire post (not just the line you quoted) was a jest


Oops. Then I apologize.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 04:59 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
Lack of empathy goes beyond 'jerkiness' -at any age.
Individuals who are unable to empathize with others, to the extent that they can look at the butchered body of their roommate one day and the next think about shopping and getting on with their own lives while wailing against the inconvenience said dead roommate is causing them as in - 'Oh **** - I can't get into my house to get my things' - and 'Oh **** - I'm feeling nervous all the time- how sad for me,' are exactly those who feel entitled to objectify people and use them or abuse them, without remorse.


Since Amanda buying new clothes is clearly unacceptable to you, what do you think she should have done to rectify the fact that she no longer had any access to her existing clothes?



aidan wrote:
There's something really, really wrong with this girl.


Nope. She is just fine. And she deserves every bit of the millions she will make from her publicity.



aidan wrote:
And I do look at her behavior and HER OWN WORDS (in the article you posted) and I can picture her guilty of the crime of which she was accused.


The evidence has been clear from the beginning that Guede committed the crime all by himself.



aidan wrote:
Let's put it this way - I wouldn't let her babysit for my kids or trust her to stay in my house with me- acquitted or not.


I'd trust her. I'd trust Raffaele also.



aidan wrote:
But lucky her - she's got her life back- I bet she's out shopping for some new clothes.
It's just tasteless and insensitive the way she's celebrating her celebrity.


First, she is not yet celebrating her celebrity.

Second, if (hopefully when) she does celebrate her celebrity, there will not be a single thing tasteless or insensitive about it.

Amanda and Raffaele deserve massive compensation for the horrible ordeal they've been through, and that celebrity you are complaining about is the end result of horrible people relentlessly spewing horrible lies about both of them for years.

If that celebrity ends up handing both of them the compensation that they both deserve, that will be the perfect happy ending to this horrible story.



aidan wrote:
It shows a lack of empathy for the victim and the victim's family- yet again.


Amanda, being a better person than I am, feels plenty of empathy towards the Kerchers.

If you're looking for someone who feels no empathy for the Kerchers, look over in my direction.

The Kerchers are bad people. As far as I'm concerned they deserve no empathy, and they'll certainly never get any from me.
aidan
 
  2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 05:03 am
@oralloy,
In what way have the Kercher's shown themselves to be bad people?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 05:12 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
I think anyone with any taste and sensitivity for the grieving family would just quietly slip away and resume their life.


Nope. You guys have done many millions of dollars worth of damage to two innocent people, and they have every right to get many millions of dollars compensation.



aidan wrote:
This whole victorious celebration in the face of a dead girl and a miscarriage of justice which has enabled her killer(s) to escape punishment - whether it was Amanda Knox and Rafael Solocieto (or however you spell it) or not- is in bad taste.


The killer was Guede and Guede alone. And him escaping serious punishment is justified Karma backlash over the framing of Amanda and Raffaele. Both his reduction from LIFE to 30 years, and his reduction from 30 to 16, are the direct result of the effort to railroad Amanda and Raffaele.

It is hardly in bad taste for Amanda and Raffaele to make many millions of dollars off their ordeal. They deserve every bit of it. And that they will make so much money due to the publicity that was created by all the horrific lies about them is poetic justice.



aidan wrote:
Put the shoe on the other foot. Say it was the British girl who was said to have killed the American girl and this girl shows very little remorse for the girl who is dead and then throws a huge party in the face of the dead girl's grieving parents when the people who were convicted of their daughter's murder are released, leaving them with a dead child and no answers.


The Kerchers did it to themselves when they fought to prevent innocent people from getting a fair trial.

And what "no answers"? Everyone knows that Guede did it alone. The evidence has been clear on that from the very beginning.
0 Replies
 
Izzie
 
  4  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 05:16 am
oralloy wrote:

Izzie wrote:
Well, you're not quite correct on that Oralloy - I saw the statement and was too horrified to respond immediately and it took me a while before I wished to address it. The same as before when you wished the US to nuke Italy and all it's residents.


I realize it's not your fault. I'm under a curse that makes everyone believe that I want to nuke every country on the planet.

But you'll not find any instance of me advocating a nuclear attack on Italy.

Attacks on Italy, yes. Probably more than enough to horrify you. But no nukes.



I apologise. You are quite correct there, you didn't say nuke at any stage.

It was bomb and genocide and other such remarks which I think are spoken in anger - but it does make it difficult to be part of a conversation when folk are talking like that, when there is no reasonable conversation taking place, even if the thoughts are in folks heads. It is hard to converse with irrationality and hatred.

Quote:
If I ever meet that pilot that dumped the cable car down the side of a mountain, I'm going to shake his hand and buy him a beer.
<snip>
Any man throws a can of Italians down the side of a mountain, that's gotta be worth a handshake and a beer.
<snip>
But in the end it doesn't matter why they are doing it. We just need to go to war and destroy them. God can ask them why they did it if he's interested.
<snip>
America needs to start killing Italian honors students.
<snip>
The important thing is to get Amanda and her boyfriend freed and then to take revenge on Italy.
<snip>
I really hope we go to war to do it. Would be really cool to turn on the TV and see a huge pile of dead Italians.
<snip>
Actually I favor genocide against Italy. The "killing Italian honors students" thing is just a nice signature line.
<snip>
I still don't see why we don't just shoot up Italy and bust her out -- and maybe bomb them back to an earlier stone age than the one they're currently in.


I do wonder at times, not just with you, but others too, who talk like this - bomb them, kill them, yay a bunch a folk died in a cable car crash...

that sort of talk - how can the world go around when there is so much hatred, so much vitriol. We can all talk with anger - I'm no angel in the anger department - I just can't talk the way you do or get into it with you.

The thing is, all this time, you were fighting for something you believed in - and the end result for you is Amanda has been freed. You said at the beginning it wasn't personal. It was about rights. But you made it personal.

Do you not see that you could have done more to channel your opinions and to discuss it, even have got some support for your cause, if you had channeled it positively? I don't see the point of getting on the internet to shout at folk when you are trying to get folk to understand, even when frustrated.

Not that you have to take any notice of what I'm saying here, but, I guess I just wanted to say it.

Hatred doesn't work.







Quote:
Look at any post where I am hostile, and you'll find it is a response to a post that deserves a hostile response.


Oftentimes that may have been the case, not always ... but, it's a personal interpretation and then it's made personal, personal attacks, personal jibes. It sometimes seems almost a contest at who can say the most outrageous and obnoxious thing just because someone wants to spar.





People can disagree on things, interpret things differently, but it doesn't make them evil.




At the end of the day, The Kercher family still have a daughter / sister who was brutally murdered. They will never have peace in their family. Wishing any ill to them I find so harsh, cruel. They did not put anyone in prison, they did not make a judge or a system do anything. I don't believe they will ever stop grieving. The right for anger, I believe, should be theirs.



(no intention to preach here... each to their own and all that, just my opinion and I needed to say it)


oh, there will never be a happy ending to this story.


A young lady was brutally murdered.

oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 05:20 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
In what way have the Kercher's shown themselves to be bad people?


They argued in the trial (or to be precise they had their lawyer argue) that the defense should be blocked from challenging any of the fake evidence. When they got the corrupt judges to agree, that let to two innocent people spending two years longer in prison.

It also led to the Karma backlash that resulted in Guede's sentence being cut from 30 years to 16 years.

They tried to do the same in the appeal. Luckily there was no corrupt judge this time. The Kerchers were quite upset over the fact that the defense were actually allowed to challenge the fake evidence in the appeal.

Plus there was that horrible article just written by Meredith's father where he hopes that Amanda and Raffaele don't attempt to make any money off this -- as if they don't deserve any compensation for what has happened to them.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sat 8 Oct, 2011 05:36 am
@Izzie,
Izzie wrote:
I apologise. You are quite correct there, you didn't say nuke at any stage.


Not your fault. I'm under a curse. Anywhere on the internet, people always think I support nuking every possible country on the planet.

Not that I shy away from the thought of nuclear war with Russia, but it's pretty much limited to Russia, and maybe North Korea when they start making threatening statements about their own nukes.



Izzie wrote:
I do wonder at times, not just with you, but others too, who talk like this - bomb them, kill them, yay a bunch a folk died in a cable car crash...

that sort of talk - how can the world go around when there is so much hatred, so much vitriol. We can all talk with anger - I'm no angel in the anger department - I just can't talk the way you do or get into it with you.

The thing is, all this time, you were fighting for something you believed in - and the end result for you is Amanda has been freed. You said at the beginning it wasn't personal. It was about rights. But you made it personal.

Do you not see that you could have done more to channel your opinions and to discuss it, even have got some support for your cause, if you had channeled it positively? I don't see the point of getting on the internet to shout at folk when you are trying to get folk to understand, even when frustrated.

Not that you have to take any notice of what I'm saying here, but, I guess I just wanted to say it.

Hatred doesn't work.


Look at the horrible thing that's been done to two innocent people. How could I *not* be this angry?



Izzie wrote:
At the end of the day, The Kercher family still have a daughter / sister who was brutally murdered. They will never have peace in their family. Wishing any ill to them I find so harsh, cruel. They did not put anyone in prison, they did not make a judge or a system do anything. I don't believe they will ever stop grieving. The right for anger, I believe, should be theirs.


When the Kerchers fought to get the corrupt judges in the first trial to block the defense from challenging fake evidence, they contributed directly to two innocent people spending two years longer in prison, and they contributed directly to Meredith's killer getting an extremely light sentence.

And what if the Kerchers had succeeded in their attempts to do the same in the appeal trial?
 

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