20
   

Amanda Knox

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Sun 28 Feb, 2010 12:32 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
They say the breakin was staged, and there was no broken glass on clothes.

The crime scene photos show the breakin was not staged, and there was no broken glass on clothes.


I had the Italian position backwards there. I suspect anyone familiar with their lies knew what I meant, but just for clarity:

The Italian liars say the breakin WAS staged and there WAS broken glass on clothes.

The crime scene photos (note I posted one of the photos a few posts up) show that the breakin was NOT staged and there was NOT broken glass on clothes.

As far as I can see I was accurate in describing the nature of the other Italian lies.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 28 Feb, 2010 04:25 pm
Quote:
Reasonable doubt that justice was done
(Matthew Harwood, The Guardian, 25 February 2010)

It's easy to forget three months have passed since conviction beyond a reasonable doubt took a holiday inside a courtroom in Perugia, Italy. On 5 December, Amanda Knox, a 22-year-old American student from Seattle, and Italian Raffaele Sollecito, 25, were found guilty of murdering British student Meredith Kercher. Two days ago, however, American audiences were reminded of Knox and her boyfriend's plight as her parents took to the Oprah Winfrey Show to once again declare her innocence.

While it's cynically easy to see the show as catering to American exceptionalism and exploiting a family's collective self-deception for ratings during "sweeps", anyone who has followed the trial should have had a gnawing feeling that the bars closed on the wrong people.

Here's why.

The jury in the Perugia sentenced Knox and Sollecito to prison for about a quarter of their lives, despite no motive, scant physical evidence, and no prior criminal histories. Prosecutors smeared Knox as a "luciferina," or "a devil with an angel's face". Unlike the US, juries in Italy are not sequestered. The constant media coverage calling Knox a "she-devil", illustrated by her promiscuity and drug-use, couldn't have fared well for the jury's neutrality. And it didn't help Knox and Sollecito that in Italy the prosecution is king, owing to its descent from the Inquisition and medieval law. "This nullifies the fact " written in our constitution by the way " that you're innocent until proven guilty," ecclesiastical judge Count Neri Capponi told Vanity Fair last year.

But what's instructive and terrifying about this case is how an overzealous prosecution used the traditional morality of the medieval Catholic town to punish an outsider and her boyfriend for a crime the evidence does not support. What's even more disturbing is that the prosecution did this despite already convicting a drifter and small-time drug dealer, Rudy Guede, of the crime. Investigators found his DNA all over Kercher's body and his bloody handprint on her pillow. Immediately after the murder, he fled to Germany where he was arrested. He told police he walked in on a man standing over Kercher with a knife after returning to her bedroom. The two struggled before the murderer fled. In October 2008, he was found guilty of murdering Kercher and sentenced to 30 years in jail " a sentence later cut to 16 years.

But the prosecution had already accused Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito of the crime and they weren't going to let them go. While it's possible the pair and Rudy Guede murdered Meredith Kercher, the prosecution's story still sounds absurd, like hell opened up underneath that picturesque cottage on All Saints Day.

According to lead prosecutor Giuliano Mignini's closing argument, Guede met Knox and Sollecito at Knox and Kercher's cottage, probably to settle a drug transaction. Kercher then began arguing with Knox, who hated Kercher because she thought Knox unclean and immoral. In a fit of drug-fuelled rage, the three attacked Kercher. Then, according to Mignini, the three tried to force Kercher into a sex game but she fought valiantly. Mignini even speculated what Knox might have said to Kercher: "You can imagine Amanda telling Meredith, 'You act like such a saint, now you are going to have sex with us.'" When they couldn't have their way with her, Sollecito and Guede held down Kercher while Knox cut her throat.

The evidence supporting Mignini's closing statement is shaky at best. Knox, however, only helped the prosecution along, engaging in absurd, even callous behaviour after the murder. When she returned home the morning after the murder, she found blood in the bathroom. However, she didn't immediately call police but took a shower, then left the cottage, and returned with Sollecito to investigate. When Knox was brought in for questioning by police, she did cartwheels in the station while awaiting interrogation. She pointed the finger at an innocent man, her boss, Patrick Lumumba, at the bar she worked at. She said she was there the night of the crime and heard Meredith Kercher scream before Lumumba killed her. (When Guede was arrested, he took Lumumba's original place in the conspiracy.) She and Sollecito both changed their stories of what happened and what they did that night. But Knox's intense questioning took place in a strange country in a strange language without an attorney or a professional translator present. She claimed the police slapped her.

Knox's allegations, however, aren't hard to discount as the lies of a desperate woman who saw the walls slowly closing inward. Her queer behaviour made it easier for Italians, Britons, and many Americans disgusted by Knox to rationalise that even if Knox didn't murder Kercher, a bad person was still deservedly punished.

But for people who still believe in a reasonable doubt, there's considerable unease that these two young people may be spending a good portion of their lives behind bars because the jury, the prosecution, and Italian society did not approve of the lives they led, especially Amanda Knox.

If there's anything to be learned from this case, it isn't that US standards of due process are better than Italy's. (Too many wrongfully convicted people face the prospect of death row in the United States for that belief to rationally exist.) It's this: when any legal system bites down on a person, especially one easy to dislike, it's hard for it to unclench its jaws.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Sun 28 Feb, 2010 07:30 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
The evidence supporting Mignini's closing statement is shaky at best. Knox, however, only helped the prosecution along, engaging in absurd, even callous behaviour after the murder.


Actually, the Italians are lying. There was nothing absurd or callous about Amanda's behavior.



Quote:
When she returned home the morning after the murder, she found blood in the bathroom. However, she didn't immediately call police but took a shower, then left the cottage, and returned with Sollecito to investigate. When Knox was brought in for questioning by police, she did cartwheels in the station while awaiting interrogation.


The Italians are lying. Amanda did not do cartwheels. She only did the splits, and only at the request of an Italian police officer.



Quote:
She pointed the finger at an innocent man, her boss, Patrick Lumumba, at the bar she worked at.


Only because the Italian police wouldn't stop hitting her until she said what they wanted her to say.



Quote:
She said she was there the night of the crime and heard Meredith Kercher scream before Lumumba killed her.


Only because the Italian police wouldn't stop hitting her until she said what they wanted her to say.



Quote:
She and Sollecito both changed their stories of what happened and what they did that night.


Only because the Italian police wouldn't stop hitting her until she said what they wanted her to say.



Quote:
Knox's allegations, however, aren't hard to discount as the lies of a desperate woman who saw the walls slowly closing inward.


Not really. The facts overwhelmingly support Amanda's story and contradict the Italian lies.

If she was trying to mislead the police, why did she issue a written retraction the very next day?

If the police were only being misled by Amanda, why did they ignore her written retraction and keep going after the bar owner?

(Those are rhetorical questions directed at the article. I know you are one of the ones who oppose putting innocent people in prison.)



Quote:
Her queer behaviour made it easier for Italians, Britons, and many Americans disgusted by Knox to rationalise that even if Knox didn't murder Kercher, a bad person was still deservedly punished.


There was nothing queer about her behavior, and anyone who is "disgusted" by Knox (or thinks she should be punished) is an evil person.



Quote:
But for people who still believe in a reasonable doubt, there's considerable unease that these two young people may be spending a good portion of their lives behind bars because the jury, the prosecution, and Italian society did not approve of the lives they led, especially Amanda Knox.


The case is considerably stronger than just reasonable doubt. There is overwhelming evidence that Guede did it alone. There is zero evidence against Knox. And there is overwhelming evidence that the Italians knew they were convicting an innocent person.

America needs to start killing Italian honors students.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Mon 1 Mar, 2010 07:28 pm
I think we are less than a week away from the deadline for the Italian court to release their official justification of the conviction.

Of course, it is a given that everything in the report will be a lie, but it should be of interest since the appeal will be based on pointing out all the lies in the report.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  2  
Mon 1 Mar, 2010 07:38 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
America needs to start killing Italian honors students.
This type of foolishness and your overall overconfidence in your assessment continues to all but destroy your credibility. That being said; I remain extremely underwhelmed by the evidence against her and do consider the Italian System a recipe for injustice.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Mon 1 Mar, 2010 11:54 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:
oralloy wrote:
America needs to start killing Italian honors students.


This type of foolishness and your overall overconfidence in your assessment continues to all but destroy your credibility. That being said; I remain extremely underwhelmed by the evidence against her and do consider the Italian System a recipe for injustice.


There is no overconfidence. The evidence is rock solid that she is innocent, and that the Italians knew she was innocent when they convicted her.

And my suggested remedy for this atrocity is entirely appropriate.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Tue 2 Mar, 2010 12:46 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
oralloy wrote:
America needs to start killing Italian honors students.


This type of foolishness and your overall overconfidence in your assessment continues to all but destroy your credibility. That being said; I remain extremely underwhelmed by the evidence against her and do consider the Italian System a recipe for injustice.


There is no overconfidence. The evidence is rock solid that she is innocent, and that the Italians knew she was innocent when they convicted her.

And my suggested remedy for this atrocity is entirely appropriate.


Just as a reminder:

Guede, and only Guede, left his DNA on the victim

Guede, and only Guede, left his DNA in the victim

Guede, and only Guede, left his fingerprints at the murder site (and in the victim's blood no less)

The crime scene photos show quite clearly that there was no broken glass "on the clothes". The Italians were lying about the breakin being "staged" just like they were lying about every other part of this case

Guede, and only Guede, has a history of committing breakins *identical* to the breakin that happened here (and he has a history of carrying a large knife during his breakins as well)

And there is ZERO evidence that Knox (or her boyfriend) had anything to do with this crime.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  3  
Tue 2 Mar, 2010 11:06 am
@oralloy,
http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Everything_Else/Clocks/Cuckoo_clock.gif
oralloy
 
  -2  
Tue 2 Mar, 2010 06:09 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:
http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Everything_Else/Clocks/Cuckoo_clock.gif


Feel free to try to show where I am wrong on even one of those facts.....
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  4  
Tue 2 Mar, 2010 06:45 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
America needs to start killing Italian honors students.


This, more than anything else you've said, highlights how much consideration you are due.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Tue 2 Mar, 2010 06:58 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
oralloy wrote:
America needs to start killing Italian honors students.


This, more than anything else you've said, highlights how much consideration you are due.


Dishonest people will use any excuse to avoid the truth, it seems.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Tue 2 Mar, 2010 07:01 pm
@Robert Gentel,
I have been too quiet. I saw that and didn't work up what to say, and then life went on.
So, well said.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Tue 2 Mar, 2010 07:08 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
I have been too quiet. I saw that and didn't work up what to say, and then life went on.
So, well said.


Speaking of you being too quiet, you never managed to answer these questions:

If Amanda was really trying to mislead the police, and her statements were not really coerced, why did she issue a written retraction the very next day?

If the police only went after the innocent bar owner because Amanda was misleading them, why did they ignore the written retraction that she gave the very next day, and continue to go after the bar owner?


My guess is you will continue to not answer them, and continue to blame the victim for the fact that the Italians hit her until she said what they wanted her to say. But I thought I'd post a reminder anyway.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Tue 2 Mar, 2010 10:17 pm
@oralloy,
"If Amanda was really trying to mislead the police, and her statements were not really coerced, why did she issue a written retraction the very next day?"

How stupid are you, Oralloy? This profile fits with a lot if people. She got advice, if even from herself.

I remain not knowing what happened, and despite your wailing, I don't think you do either.

There are two more levels for the trial period.

I'm not one to promote justice as having worked in italy over time but there are many working for it.

I think arrogance in this matter by any country is not applied well.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Tue 2 Mar, 2010 11:51 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
This profile fits with a lot if people.


It fits with people who have police beat confessions out of them.




ossobuco wrote:
She got advice, if even from herself.


Her story was completely consistent both before and after that interrogation session. The only time it changed is when the Italians were hitting her.

And there was another question I asked there:

If the police only went after that guy because they were being misled, why did they completely ignore her retraction and keep going after him?


I believe OCCOM BILL pointed out to you a few pages back that these statements were quite clearly coerced. You sort of dodged the point by acting like he was saying we should make Miranda legally binding on other governments, but the fact remains that it is utterly preposterous to blame Amanda for anything she said in that statement.




And that interrogation is not the only place where the facts completely support Amanda and completely contradict the Italians, either.

Every bit of the evidence the Italians pretended they had against Amanda turned out to be completely fabricated.

For instance, their claim that the breakin was staged "because there was broken glass on clothes" is quite clearly refuted by the actual pictures from the crime scene, which clearly show that there was not a bit of broken glass on clothes.

And let's not forget the fictitious bleach purchase receipts they told everyone they had.





ossobuco wrote:
I remain not knowing what happened,


That is a preposterous position to take considering all the evidence.

There is ZERO evidence that Knox (or her boyfriend) had anything to do with this crime.

Guede, and only Guede, left his DNA on the victim.

Guede, and only Guede, left his DNA in the victim.

Guede, and only Guede, left his fingerprints at the murder site (and in the victim's blood no less).

Guede, and only Guede, has a history of committing breakins *identical* to the breakin that happened here (and he has a history of carrying a large knife during his breakins as well).




ossobuco wrote:
and despite your wailing, I don't think you do either.


No. The evidence allows me to know exactly what happened.

Guede broke in through the window, alone, while carrying a large knife (just like he has done many times before), and then he killed Kercher with his knife.



ossobuco wrote:
I think arrogance in this matter by any country is not applied well.


What you see in me is not arrogance, but a very large amount of completely justified anger.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Tue 2 Mar, 2010 11:59 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
And that interrogation is not the only place where the facts completely support Amanda and completely contradict the Italians, either.

Every bit of the evidence the Italians pretended they had against Amanda turned out to be completely fabricated.

For instance, their claim that the breakin was staged "because there was broken glass on clothes" is quite clearly refuted by the actual pictures from the crime scene, which clearly show that there was not a bit of broken glass on clothes.



Lots of broken glass on the carpet in front of the bed.

No broken glass on the piles of clothes.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8628/filomenaroom.jpg
Ionus
 
  1  
Wed 3 Mar, 2010 12:08 am
@oralloy,
Can you see broken glass on the floor ? Did it all land on the mat or is it that we can not tell from a photo ? Glass is usually transparent. I can see what seems to be glass on the dark grey clothes.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Wed 3 Mar, 2010 04:45 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Can you see broken glass on the floor ? Did it all land on the mat or is it that we can not tell from a photo ? Glass is usually transparent.


The resolution of image is not ideal. I've looked for a higher resolution version of the photo online, and have so far not found one. Chances are that I'll be looking again though, given the extremely strong circumstantial evidence that Guede broke in through this window (he has a history of breaking in through windows while carrying a big knife, including a breakin that is an exact match for this one).

However, since Guede breaks second story windows by throwing a large rock with a lot of force, it could very well be that most of the glass was propelled all the way to the mat.



Also, the prosecution tried desperately to point to broken glass on clothes using full resolution photos and failed comically each time:

Quote:
Yesterday, as we remember, Mignini showed a picture with white stains on a sweater, which he suggested could be the glass of the broken window. That phantom glass that everybody saw except the cameras.

Maria del Grosso answered Mignini. Simply by picking the next picture. Which shows what the white things were: the polka dots of the sweater.

An optical illusion had deceived Mignini. Just the last of the many illusions of this case, optical or not.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/12/amanda-knox-stands-up.html


(I disagree with the conclusion that the prosecutor was fooled by an illusion. He knew very well that he was prosecuting innocent people.)




Ionus wrote:
I can see what seems to be glass on the dark grey clothes.


That's a pocket.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Wed 3 Mar, 2010 06:36 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
given the extremely strong circumstantial evidence that Guede broke in through this window (he has a history of breaking in through windows while carrying a big knife, including a breakin that is an exact match for this one).



I've linked Guede's history of breakins before, but have since found a set of links I like better (more descriptive). This seems a good opening to post the new links:


Guede's first known instance of breaking in through a window while carrying a large knife:

Quote:
Perugia resident Christian Tramontano, who will not be testifying in person, made a statement to Perugia police Jan. 1, 2008, two months after Kercher's murder, saying that he had recognized Guede from newspaper photographs as the person who had broken into his house and threatened him with a knife four months earlier.

In the statement to police, Tramontano said he and his girlfriend were awakened by noises in their apartment early on Sept. 1 or 2, 2007. When Tramontano looked down from his loft bed, he saw a young man going through his belongings. Tramontano chased the man downstairs as he tried to escape, but the front door was locked. The thief -- who Tramontano identified as Guede -- first used a chair to keep Tramontano at a distance, and then pulled out a switchblade knife. Guede, who escaped, had stolen a 5 euro bill and three credit cards.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7946289&page=2




Guede's break in through a high window by throwing a large rock through it (exact duplicate of the Kercher murder breakin):

Quote:
A defense witness testified that just two weeks before British exchange student Meredith Kercher was murdered, his law studio was broken into and a computer and cell phone were stolen. The stolen objects were later found in the possession of Rudy Guede, who has already been convicted for his role in Kercher's murder.

Paolo Brocchi, a lawyer whose office is not far from where Kercher was killed, told the court that the thief had entered his office through a window that had been broken with a large rock.

A similar scenario was found in the cottage where Kercher was killed Nov. 1, 2007.

. . . .

Palazzoli discovered they had been broken into Sunday, Oct. 14, 2007, and police later determined that the thief or thieves had entered by climbing up to the window, which is above a terrace, about 12 feet high. Police determined a rock was used with some strength to break through the double glass, and the alarm system was disabled. A computer and a printer were missing.

There was a similar broken window at the scene of Kercher's murder, in the house on via della Pergola in Perugia that Knox and Kercher shared with two Italian girls, When Knox returned to the house on Nov. 2, 2007, the morning after the murder, she noticed that the window in her housemate Filomena Romanelli's room was broken, and there was glass on the floor. Nothing of value was missing from any of the rooms, however. Police later found a large rock in the room.

. . . .

Brocchi explained in court that about two weeks after the theft, Oct. 27, he received a call from the police saying that they had found the stolen computer and a cell phone belonging to him (which he had not realized had gone missing). The objects were found on a person who was picked up by police in Milan, but they did not specify who that person was.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7939101
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7939101&page=2




Guede's breakin where he was arrested while in possession both of a huge knife and of items stolen from the previous (high window) breakin:

Quote:
Nursery school owner Maria del Prato testified in court today, with Knox's and Sollecito's parents looking on, that she had stopped by her school Saturday Oct. 27, when it was closed, and came upon Guede in her office.

"I asked him who he was," she told the court, "and he replied perfectly calmly, even though I had caught him red-handed." Del Prato said he told her he was "a kid from Perugia" who had arrived the night before and had nowhere to sleep.

Del Prato doubted his story, as her locker had been opened, and she said she believed Guede was looking for something to steal. Some small change was missing, and Del Prato noticed Guede had a laptop, but he told her it was his.

When police arrived at the school, they searched Guede's backpack and found a large knife with a 16-inch blade that had been taken from the school kitchen.

Guede was later booked at a Milan police station and accused of theft, receiving stolen goods, and in possession of a weapon. He was also fingerprinted and then released.

It was those fingerprint records that eventually nailed Guede to the scene of Meredith Kercher's murder. His bloody palm print was found on a pillow under Kercher's dead body.

The episode that Maria Del Prato recounted in court Friday followed Friday's testimony by Perugia lawyer Paolo Brocchi, who said a computer and cell phone had been stolen from his law offices in October 2007, weeks before Kercher's murder. The computer from Brocchi's office matched the one Guede had brought to Milan.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7946289
oralloy
 
  -1  
Thu 4 Mar, 2010 11:42 am
The Italian judges released their list of lies to justify the conviction.

Haven't had time to read these links myself yet, but here are the wire reports:

AP: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_italy_knox

AFP: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/italyusbritaincrime

I'll go looking for an English translation of the report when I get a chance.

And the last time I used Yahoo to link wire stories, the link came up with a 404 error half the time, so if one of those links does that, clicking the link a second time might make it work (refreshing the error page probably won't work though, as it is different from the article URL).
 

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