20
   

Amanda Knox

 
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Tue 29 Dec, 2009 09:32 am
@oralloy,
In her own testimony, Amanda Knox described receiving several light slaps on the back of her head while the policewoman was questioning her. Although that is not a "beating", it contributes to a well-known problem in interrogations: suspects feeling pressure to answer the way that the interrogator wants them to. Amanda was twenty years old, a newcomer in Italy, and was therefore vulnerable to suggestions made by the policewoman.
contrex
 
  3  
Tue 29 Dec, 2009 10:41 am
Quote:
In her own testimony


How do we know she was telling the truth?
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Tue 29 Dec, 2009 01:24 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

Quote:
In her own testimony


How do we know she was telling the truth?
After 40 hours of interrogations without an attorney present; you can't. The jury shouldn't have been allowed to know any details of that coercive effort. Here in the States, coerced statements are considered unreliable... because it’s been repeatedly proven that coerced statements are indeed unreliable. 15% of all convicted murderers who were later exonerated by the Innocence Project (Volunteer Appellate lawyers, who specialize in using DNA evidence to overturn wrongful convictions) actually CONFESSED to crimes they did not in fact commit. 15%!

Here in the civilized courts of Wisconsin; Defendant's actually have rights that must be recognized or remedied by suppression. This was confirmed as recently as 2003 in State v. Hoppe:
Quote:
The principles of law governing the voluntariness inquiry are summarized in Hoppe, 2003 WI 43, 261 Wis. 2d 294, 661 N.W.2d 407. There, the court observed that a defendant's statements are voluntary "if they are the product of a free and unconstrained will, reflecting deliberateness of choice, as opposed to the result of a conspicuously unequal confrontation in which the pressures brought to bear on the defendant by representatives of the State exceeded the defendant's ability to resist." Id., P36 (citing Clappes, 136 Wis. 2d at 236; Norwood v. State, 74 Wis. 2d 343, 364, 246 N.W.2d 801 (1976); State v. Hoyt, 21 Wis. 2d 284, 308, 128 N.W.2d 645 (1964)).
Source

In this case, the initial statements of none of the unrepresented witness/defendants implicated Amanda Knox in any way. Unfortunately for her, Defendant's in Italy have no such protection as that quoted above, and in this exact case; NO attempt was made to shield the Jury from even the Statements the Italian Courts deemed inadmissible. Justice? Not in my book.

While it’s probable that a lynch mob accurately targets the guilty party more often than not, too; I wouldn’t call that justice either.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Tue 29 Dec, 2009 07:32 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
The fact that there is zero evidence of guilt causes you no reasonable doubt?


I do not consider this a fact. The forensic evidence in this case is weak, but forensic evidence usually requires some interpretation and involves some doubt. You can have my fingerprints all over the murder weapon without me being the murderer. So this kind of evidence won't always produce a black/white of guilty and innocent.

But I've never said I have no reasonable doubt. Just that the jury system doesn't cause me doubt in this case. The jury doesn't influence my opinion on this, and it their guilty verdict doesn't seem to have influenced yours either for that matter.

To be honest, I'm not sure what involvement she had, if any, in the murder. However I also don't find the notion that being tapped on the back of her head or manhandled is explanation enough for her behavior and changing stories. I also don't think her use of marijuana legitimately affected her memory like she claimed. I'm sure that's possible but despite extensive personal research I've never encountered anyone like that.

I find her record of deceit suspicious, and am wary of the way she's described in American media, but I have not personally drawn any hard conclusions about her involvement in this case.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Tue 29 Dec, 2009 07:56 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Oralloy and I haven't even presented parallel arguments. I find his conviction nearly as unsupportable as you do.


Pardon me then, I am not following this thread closely and may have mistaken your position on it.

Quote:
This question stems from a dispute over whether or not the Italian system provides a "presumption of innocence until proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt".


In my opinion, I don't know the Italian system well enough to comment on it intelligently. But while I'd prefer higher thresholds I don't think that their simple jury majority difference means that reasonable doubt is ignored because I don't have anything on which to base the assumption that such a split jury would be acting reasonably.

Honestly, in my own musings about jury systems the thing I most want to change is the "of your own peers" part. I'd want a jury of judges. But these aren't things I've thought of much, what I was talking about is how this alone does not cast any doubt on the verdict for me. It might be a flawed system but the fact that it exists doesn't mean this was a flawed verdict.

Quote:
By interjecting your unexplained confidence in this verdict; you make no more sense than Oralloy.


I think you must have understood me to have meant that I have no doubt about the verdict, but what I'm saying is that the majority jury rule itself doesn't cause doubt for me.

Quote:
My concern is with the system itself. If the guilty aren't offered every benefit of the doubt, than neither will the innocent be. It is my contention that any system that requires you to convince half of a jury that the State has failed to make its case; cannot reasonably be described as one that offers a presumption of innocence, let alone a system bothers to insure that the guilty are found so, beyond a reasonable doubt.


I don't see their threshold as ideal, but without a lot more knowledge I can't conclude that it leads to this conclusion because I don't personally know what would constitute reasonable doubt as expressed by a jury verdict. Seems to me that a jury can easily be polarized and I personally find the failure to sequester the jury to be of more concern myself.

I guess what I'm saying is that while these surely sound like legitimate criticisms of their system to me, I don't know enough about it to conclude that it is so to the degree that you have concluded. I saw a bit of American media on this subject and I certainly came away with the impression that they were as guilty of xenophobia and bias in their reporting as they claimed the Italian media was. This has struck me as a largely nationalistic debate that makes it difficult to get to the bottom of and I'm just not as ready to conclude that the Italian system is simply fatally flawed with the little information I have about it. I don't know enough about forensic science to properly parse the American media saying that a bra clasp's time on the floor is sufficiently likely to contaminate the evidence to the degree that it is unreliable.

In any case, what I'd been saying is that these criticisms don't influence my opinion on this particular case. The system is what it is, and if it's verdict isn't enough to convince me then it should come as no surprise that deficiencies in the system aren't enough to convince me of innocence.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Tue 29 Dec, 2009 08:00 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
To be honest, I'm not sure what involvement she had, if any, in the murder. However I also don't find the notion that being tapped on the back of her head or manhandled is explanation enough for her behavior and changing stories. I also don't think her use of marijuana legitimately affected her memory like she claimed. I'm sure that's possible but despite extensive personal research I've never encountered anyone like that.


I should also note specifically that I find the combination of these claims to be more likely to indicate that she wants to explain away lies she is knowingly telling than the notion that they beat the lies out of her in addition to the excuse about her lapses in memory.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Tue 29 Dec, 2009 08:02 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:
Shouldn't "reasonable doubt" and "unanimous verdict" be treated as separate concepts? I believe that Italian juries are not required to disclose how many of the jurors agreed. The majority who reached the verdict may have indeed been convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.


Interesting, I've searched for that information a few times now with no success. That would explain why I can't find it easily.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Tue 29 Dec, 2009 08:04 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
However, they clearly knew she was innocent. They convicted her to cover up the fact that inspector Rita Ficarra beat a confession out of an innocent American honors student under the supervision of Giuliano Mignini. So the question of reasonable doubt didn't really enter into it.


Cool story bro.
Merry Andrew
 
  2  
Tue 29 Dec, 2009 08:47 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
However, they clearly knew she was innocent. They convicted her to cover up the fact that inspector Rita Ficarra beat a confession out of an innocent American honors student under the supervision of Giuliano Mignini. So the question of reasonable doubt didn't really enter into it.


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
ossobuco
 
  1  
Tue 29 Dec, 2009 09:53 pm
I agree with Robert's last bunch of posts. On the number of jurors acceptable among the eight and whether or not the more official judges have to be part of the number, I don't remember if I ever knew. Raphillon may know this.

As fortune would have it, I just got in the mail another legal procedural novel by that judge from Bari, Gianrico Carafiglio. The title: Reasonable Doubt.

So, soon enough, I may understand more about the jury system there in Italy. We'll see.

OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Wed 30 Dec, 2009 04:18 am
@Robert Gentel,
Is there some good reason you can't or won't answer the question I asked, rather than the one you wished I asked? It was not at all specific to this case for good reason (rule of law.)

As for DNA, there is a video of the buffoons handing the bra clasp back and forth when they discovered it, rather than bagging it immediately. I also doubt any forensic authority is suggesting the time on the floor would contaminate the evidence, but rather that the month long gap in the chain of custody makes it unreliable from a legal standpoint. With that big of a gap, and the mishandling there is simply no way of knowing if it's been contaminated... and the benefit of that doubt should go to the accused. Same goes for the knife. There is apparently an insufficient quantity of genetic material to verify the State's test, which wouldn't fly here in the States.

And as you pointed out, even the things that were suppressed; said supression had little consequence because it was introduced through the swarming media instead,and there was no sequestration... and there certainly didn't appear to be any kind of gag order ordered or respected.

Finally, comparing the media biases is hardly a wash because the Italian Jury was bombarded not just by the Italian media version; but also poisoned by a steady dose of the American disdain for same as well as our disdain for the Italian system itself. Their "Soap Rags" sold plenty of paper, literally painting the U.S. as suggesting we don't believe the Jurors themselves were up to the task... without qualifying the sentiment with the FACT that we would find a simple majority of American jurors to be equally repugnant to justice.

While none of the above does anything to prove her innocent; here in the States there would be no need to prove her innocent… which has been my complaint from the get go. A simple majority from a mostly lay person jury (6 of 8), who sat on an un-sequestered, frequently tainted panel, and listened to what can only be deemed coerced (by U.S. Standards) testimony… was certainly not primed to decide anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

Aside: I wouldn’t be so quick to forfeit a jury of your peers. You are correct in judging the lay person infinitely less qualified, but he is the juror of choice because he is unbiased and un-jaded (in theory.) Professional Judges tend to be ex-District Attorneys, can get bored in their profession as easy as anyone, and might care more about making their Tee Time than anything else. I doubt it’s an unusual occurrence for the wide-eyed, ignorant lay person juror to be more interested in justice than the professional judge and both the advocates for the prosecution and the defense combined. I’d rather face a jury of my peers, anytime.



OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Wed 30 Dec, 2009 04:26 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

I agree with Robert's last bunch of posts. On the number of jurors acceptable among the eight and whether or not the more official judges have to be part of the number, I don't remember if I ever knew. Raphillon may know this.
Simple majority of 5, out of 6 lay person judges and 2 pros, all getting equal votes. The Judge who acts as "President" obviously has more power to steer the ship, and both are probably deferred to out of respect; but neither has extra official pull in the jury decision.
wandeljw
 
  2  
Wed 30 Dec, 2009 10:04 am
@OCCOM BILL,
It is true that the jury was not sequestered and I agree that that was a significant problem. The trial started in January and dragged on until December. The court met only 2 days a week and there were long vacations between various stages (prosecution's presentation, defense presentation, prosecution and defense summations).
ossobuco
 
  1  
Wed 30 Dec, 2009 11:51 am
@OCCOM BILL,
Thanks for that info, Bill.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Wed 30 Dec, 2009 12:46 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

It is true that the jury was not sequestered and I agree that that was a significant problem. The trial started in January and dragged on until December. The court met only 2 days a week and there were long vacations between various stages (prosecution's presentation, defense presentation, prosecution and defense summations).
Not even an option under this bizarre legal system. Jurors don't even take off work while serving their civic duty. Can you imagine how tainted they must have become during the course of that year? They weren't just exposed, but bombarded by mountains of quasi-evidence that was far more prejudicial than probative in value (and would therefore be excluded by a properly functioning American Court.

In a typical trial here, there are multiple evidentiary hearings and and sidebars outside of the jury's hearing. The goal is to prevent the jury from ever hearing about things that are deemed inadmissable (Examples: A confession never took place (coercion exclusion, if Miranda rules weren't properly observed), the defendant hasn't raped 20 woman previously (too prejudicial, if there's no link to this accusation), an eyewitness never stepped forward at all (if deemed unreliable), the victim wasn't promiscuous (irrelevant in most situations), etc.)

In this mock-trial, the jury was exposed to pretty much everything that was excluded and more through the press, including whatever slander the celebrity rags could dream up to sell their papers. Some of that which was suppressed may have been even more damaging than if it hadn't been, because the jury heard about anyway, absent counter-arguments, alternate explanations and therefore had no way to measure the veracity of this quasi-evidence. Where is the "Due Process" in that?

Has anyone here not worked with those, even loved some of those who are only too eager to believe the printed word? Are you, yourself immune from forming opinions based on what you hear in the press?

How well would a randomly selected jury of A2Kers fair at separating fact from fiction under these conditions? Even if we copy the Italians and exclude A2Kers under 35, over 65 and insist that each juror has at least finished Junior High School: Would you be satisfied with a simple majority of these persons, under these conditions, to decide your fate? Do you honestly think random samplings under these conditions would deliver consistent results? Or would you want a super-majority at the very least, if not unanimous agreement before you'd consider such a group capable of delivering a verdict, beyond a reasonable doubt? And if so, why would you think a random sampling of Italian's would be any more reliable?


0 Replies
 
Raphillon
 
  2  
Wed 30 Dec, 2009 10:56 pm
@ossobuco,
As far as I know the simple majority wins. The jury must answer to 6 questions... I'll translate them roughly:
1) Existence of the crime
2) If the suspect committed the crime
3) If he did by his will or can be blamed for this
4) If the suspect committed any other crime (implies opening another procedure against him)
5) If exist any circumstance that may extinguish the crime
6) If all condition to proceed against the suspect are respected.

If I understand well in the media fog, the jury was unanimous on this. They were split only for the punishment to assign, if life-inprisonment or not.

About the fact that the jury was not isolated, yes, I do agree it should. But, as I said, the procedure is far from perfect and since it usually lasts fon one year or more... Well you simply can not imprison 6 people who have to work and probably run a family for over one year... I really think this is one thing Italy can not be proud of... An innocent could be imprisoned for more than one year, this is unacceptable...
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Thu 31 Dec, 2009 09:39 am
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Is there some good reason you can't or won't answer the question I asked, rather than the one you wished I asked?


I did answer it, it may not be the answer you are looking for but I'm bored of this game where you call me out to answer questions that have nothing at all to do with anything I've posted and that I've now already answered.
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Thu 31 Dec, 2009 01:29 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Is there some good reason you can't or won't answer the question I asked, rather than the one you wished I asked?


I did answer it, it may not be the answer you are looking for but I'm bored of this game where you call me out to answer questions that have nothing at all to do with anything I've posted and that I've now already answered.
This is an obvious copout, Robert. You responded, but you never answered the simple, repeated, yes or no question:
Repeatedly I wrote:
If 3 of 8 jurors were to insist that the State failed to make its case; do you think the other 5 jurors opinion to the contrary would equate to a finding of guilt, beyond a reasonable doubt?
Yes, or no?

Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Thu 31 Dec, 2009 04:25 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Just because you decide it's a yes or no question doesn't mean it I must answer that way. My answer was I don't know. I've been clear enough in that I've said I don't agree with you that their system is necessarily fatally flawed because of that structure. I think that just like any system it can work well sometimes and fail at other times. But it does strike me as less than ideal, and I just don't know enough about the system in practice to know the extent of the effect the different threshold has.
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Thu 31 Dec, 2009 05:36 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

Just because you decide it's a yes or no question doesn't mean it I must answer that way. My answer was I don't know. I've been clear enough in that I've said I don't agree with you that their system is necessarily fatally flawed because of that structure. I think that just like any system it can work well sometimes and fail at other times. But it does strike me as less than ideal, and I just don't know enough about the system in practice to know the extent of the effect the different threshold has.
Thank you for at least cooperating enough to prove my point.

Can anyone here honestly answer that question in the affirmative?
 

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