In the news: Lack of parenting

There seems to be a lot of conflation there.

For example, with the Swiss Army knife, I don't think there would have been the same outcry if a teacher had said, "hey, careful with that thing, I'll hold on to it until the end of the day," and left it at that. Instead, the school suspended him immediately and then said he'd have to spend 45 days in a "reform school."

THAT was overreacting.

The school board agreed by the way.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33289924/

Well, I would not call it a lack of parenting in many cases.
Swiss army knife: my brother carried one around when he was a kid - it was in
his pocket all the time. My friend has two boys (10,12) and they also have Swiss army knives with them all the time, even in school. No problem in Europe!

I myself find the daily recitation of the pledge of allegiance quite silly and would support my child if she refuses.

There was no child in the balloon, as we all know. His little brother was mistaken. The father is a scientist and likes to build flying saucers. Why
do you assume he resp. both parents lack parenting skills?

Black teenagers who set a white teen on fire is indeed a serious crime,
but it has nothing to do with a lack of parenting as with the tremendous influx
of violent movies/videos and other media geared toward such utter violence.

No child is more sheltered and more shielded (with warning signs just about
everywhere) than an American kid. I think this country has gone overboard
in protecting children - to the point that they lash out in the opposite direction.

There is no need for a child to be in possession of a knife of any kind. It is only common sense. Why would he need it? Under the supervision of an adult...no problem.

I have observed lack of parent supervision (or even caring) over the years and agree that it DOES influence how a child behaves and grows up. There are many influences such as movies, television, music etc. but the bottom line is that the parent is responsible for the child.

What reason could a child have not to say the pledge in America? Are they true Americans or transplanted freeloaders? In Canada, the schoolchildren sing O Canada each morning. It is appalling at how many do not do so. Why? Because the parents do not care enough even to stop talking etc. when it is played in public.

I wonder what percentage of parents actually instill morals, character and right and wrong into their children.

Oh, and yes..... I do consider mild spanking to be appropriate and not child abuse.

Why are they "transplanted freeloaders" if they don't recite the pledge, Intrepid?
Granted that I am not born in this country, but I don't see the need to pledge
the allegiance on a daily basis to a country a child was merely born into.
Do they become better Americans this way?

Why do you assume that these parents are bad in allowing their children to
abstain from saying the pledge? I'd say they are probably good parents in
allowing the child to make a choice in something they feel so strongly about
versus coercing a child into doing it and enforce it with "mild" spanking.
There is no such thing as a mild spanking, by the way!

I am just going by what I see in similar situations in Canada. Almost, if not all, of these situations included persons of apparent heritage from others places.

I hope you did not think that I was referring to you in any way. I do feel, however, that if someone takes a pledge to become a citizen of another country that they should honour that country. Perhaps the person referred to in the story is not a citizen. I can see that as making a difference.



Allowing a child to make any choice they please is not good parenting. What if the child chooses not to go to school? Not to wear clothes in public? To deface property? To steal? To be disrespectful to people?

Where is the line drawn and when does the parent take actual control?

I am not advocating the spanking for the above situation. I am speaking about this in general. I do not agree that there is no such thing as a mild spanking. I do believe, however, that there are severe bleeding hearts.

I wondered about the swiss army knife scenario. I thought about it after the fact when someone said, 'Maybe he brought the utensil to school without the parent knowing about it,' and I realized that any mother of a son should know that if that boy got a swiss army knife for his birthday, he'd want to bring it to school to show his friends.
So in the morning before school, I would have said, 'Joey - where's your swiss army knife? Let me hold it for you until you get home from school, because we both know - you can't bring a knife or any sharp untensil that could be considered to be a weapon - even if you would NEVER use it as a weapon...it has to be kept at home and you can only use it when I allow you to.

I mean, for goodness sake - he could slice his finger open sharpening a stick to cook marshmallows on. He's FIVE (or six I think) = not eight - not ten - not twelve....I mean thinking for two minutes about a five year old's fine motor skills, coordination and inflated sense of his own abilities - I would keep the knife for him, and do my job as a parent keeping my own child safe and the other children he came in contact with safe.

The parents should have taken responsibility. I agree.

Because if the school does not follow through on their rules in this situation - how will they be able to follow through on their rules in the next situation in which someone might be bringing a weapon to school with intent.

The balloon should have been deflated or kept out of the childrens' reach - just like if you have a pool in your backyard - you put a fence around it and a padlock on the gate unless you're there to supervise.

A kid who would set another kid on fire has a much bigger problem than lack of parenting or supervision and inappropriate television viewing - I'd say. I haven't heard that story yet.

And the pledge of allegiance thing - in this boy's case, he seems to have had moral objections to it. But as Intrepid said, in a lot of cases it's nothing more than open defiance and/or lack of respect for authority.
And sometimes they don't even know why- and that actually very well might come from watching tv and movies.

Hey, Aidan. We agree on something.

Yep - if my six year old kid hurt himself or another kid with a knife I knew he had but hadn't taken from him - that'd be my fault.
And if he got in trouble for taking it to school, when I knew he wasn't allowed to, that'd be my fault too - not the teacher who was only following the rules in her employee handbook.

Generally:

There are parents who don't parent their kids enough. For sure.

There are parents who over-parent -- the whole helicopter, hovering, overprotective thing. I agree with CJane that I see more overprotection in my social milieu than under-parenting.

In terms of social trends, I'm not sure which element has the upper hand -- what historical context are we giving it, for one?

In terms of these specific examples, a mixed bag. Setting on fire is a crime, pure and simple. There have been crimes for a long time.

The pledge thing doesn't fit "lack of parenting" at all IMO. I've had major qualms with the pledge myself and I think that kids mindlessly droning something every morning doesn't have much to do with how much they respect their country -- and is kind of against the principles I respect about my country. As Aidan says, the kid seemed thoughtful about it, not just mindlessly rebelling or whatever.

The balloon thing is just a mess. From what I saw of this guy on "Wife Swap" -- and I happened to see him, just a few weeks ago -- I don't think much of his parenting at all. Still, he's one guy. There have been bad parents and good parents forever.

The knife thing, the kid sounds responsible and the parents seem to be generally good parents. I do think the school overreacted, as indicated by the article. (45 days of reform school? Seriously?) (And, again, the school board of that district agreed it was an overreaction.)

The only one I'd say necessarily involves bad parenting is the burning of the poor kid. (Bad or absent....eg the single parent working 2 to 3 jobs just to get by) That level of lack of empathy and control says that a hell of a lot more than violent video games has gone wrong...though I guess the gang culture is hard for parents to mitigate in some areas.

The knife thing...any kid can sneak stuff past good parents a time or two.

That level of lack of empathy

Intrepid, allowing a child to abstain from saying the pledge does not mean
that the child can make all choices for himself. That's not what I am advocating,
on the contrary I am very much for discipline. However, I see no harm in
not saying the pledge. Does it make better patriots if they do?



I agree here, I honour the U.S., its laws and oblige by it, as well as paying taxes,
however it doesn't make it any better or worse for saying the pledge.

I agree with you that in many cases there is a sad lack of parenting in today's world. In the case of single-parent low-income families there is often none.

That said, I don't think any of the cases you cite make your point. There is no one common point in those four incidents and certainly nothing that points to a lack of parenting skills.

I saw a story (I hope its not debunked on SNopes), where a kid brought a birthday cake to school. He also brought a table knife to cut it. The teacher allowed all the kids to have a slice of cake, and then she ratted the kid out to the school authorities.
Now that teacher ought to have to do 60 days of community service for excessive stupidity.

Well, I don't know about you, but if my six year old child were to be cut by a knife that another six year old brought to school - even if she cut herself because the other boy handed it to her to play with on the playground - and I approached the teacher and said, 'Why did this boy have this knife at school?' and the teacher said, 'I don't know....' and then the boy said, 'Well I brought my knife to school before and all the teacher did was take it for the day and put it in her desk and my mom said, 'Don't bring it to school again, but she didn't put it away so I couldn't sneak it by her....so I did and I just thought Olivia would have fun sharpening sticks like I did....' and then the mom of that boy said to me, 'He's very responsible and I'm a good parent...' and the teacher said to me, 'I know what it says in the handbook' but he's a great kid and his mother is a wonderful parent - that would mean just about **** - as I took my daughter to the ER to get her finger stitched up.

Who discerns who 'the good parents' are? That's a very interesting distinction to make- I wonder who gets to make it.

You seem to be reacting to something I didn't say.

I think 45 days at reform school for bringing a swiss army knife to school, as described in that article, is overreacting. The school board agreed. You seem to be disagreeing with what I'm saying but I'm not sure what. You think that six-year-old should have spent 45 days at reform school for this?

I agree.

I think, when I went to my first communion 50 years ago, nearly every boy got a pocket knife as present (but many had had one before already) ... or at least a Bowie knives. (Though I had to be 12 before my parents allowed me to own one.)

As far as knives, the culture in which I grew up, any boy of school age or older would normally carry a jacknife as part of his standard equipment. You peeled apples with it, cut your sandwich with it, etc. etc. etc. Using a knife as a weapon? Why would a strapping able-bodied boy need a weapon? We fought in the schoolyard with no weapons. To use a weapon would have been seen as cowardly.

I remember one incident when I was in the second class (aged 7): we had two "gangs", which fought not only on the school yard but in the afternoon as well, in the gardens, on the street.
So, when we had sports on the football (soccer) ground, our teacher decided that we should have a "battle", those who cried got a minus-point.
We won 2:1, but afterwards we made friendships 'across the borders'.

I'm not sure if this was a very good pedagogic attempt - but it had worked.

As said, I wasn't allowed to own a knife. But all others had one (well, most, but as far as I told my parents "everyone").
Grandpa gave me the first ("don't tell grandma!") when I was six or seven.
(You need a knife i.e. to cut hazelnut for making spears or a bow and arrow.)

Walter, we are in 100% agreement. How the heck is a kid going to make a decent spear, not to mention bow and arrow without a good pocket knife. Somehow, I suspect the argument isn't going to carry much weight with people who would give a boy a 45 day suspension for having a combination knife, fork, and spoon in his posession, but I agree.

My two neighbors in our little quadrangle have a total of two girls and one boy. One of the girls recently carved a nice walking stick, and she used a knife to do it. I don't know, maybe it's a combination walking stick, sword, fishing pole, but she made it, and it's all hers. They stalk each other with water guns, semi automatic dart guns, and things that originated in Star wars. They even have sword fights. Anything I leave outside the house is completely safe. Nothing will be damaged and nothing is going to come up missing. Yet, at least one of them has access to a knife.

Just a random thought on knives. Parents, if you get your kid a pocket knife, it is going to be carried in a pocket.