28
   

Barney Frank, could e be right?

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 01:27 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
We hear the constant repitition that the government will (1) reap huge savings in MEDICARE to pay for new entitlements, but (2) will not arbitrarily reduce payments for services under it.


Who is 'constantly repeating' this? The Dems' plans call for paying for the Public option and other reforms mostly through new taxes on the Rich and corporations which don't offer health care plans. Who is making this argument, that you are saying is one of the prime arguments?

Of course, I realize that this is an attempt to get you to provide evidence for your assertions, and therefore useless, but form demands that I try.

Cycloptichorn


President Obama has repeated this mantra about savings in Medicare on numerous occasions in public speeches and utterances - - and I think you know that to be true. I have heard it repeatedly and feel no obligation to provide citations for you.


I have heard Obama say that we could achieve savings through modernization of medicare practices, but not through cutting reimbursement rates - the only one I have heard claim this is you, George.

Apparently, you never feel obliged to provide citations for anyone, ever...

Quote:
With respect to your other allegations about the "dems plans" -- they don't add up to "paying for" the entitlements they propose.


I believe they do, I have seen actual studies and numbers which say they do, and your assertions that they don't are thin and useless. I'm sure you realize this, but it's been so long since someone called you out on your habit of serially arguing by assertion, that you just can't bring yourself to be bothered to present factual arguments.

Quote:
In any event, the Administration has already lost the confidence of the public on this issue. All they're trying to do now is limit their political losses.


Oh, I think you are pretty wrong on this one. The Silly Season was used by your side to spread lies and fear about the plan - which is effective in scaring people, but the Dems still have pretty large majorities in Congress, and they know that passing this reform will kill your party. So you probably shouldn't crow too much yet...

Cycloptichorn
roger
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 01:31 pm
Dumb Bitch made Barney Frank look reasonable. What next; make Chris Dodd look honest?
FreeDuck
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 01:32 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

Dumb Bitch made Barney Frank look reasonable. What next; make Chris Dodd look honest?

Laughing There you have it.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 02:08 pm
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:
Probably about the same number of dems who constantly compared Bush to Hitler. But of course back then it was a-ok, right y'all?

It is stupid regardless of who is doing the comparing, but they have every right to do so if they want. But of course, that is just one clown's opinion.

I doubt you'd find outrage that someone didn't take 'em seriously, though, or insist that Bush debate them.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 03:12 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You consistently distort things apparently to suit your purposes. I have noted the repeated claims of the president to"reap huge savings on Medicare", but without any detail as to how he will do it. I have noted here that the only levers the law provides are for the government to reduce reinbursement rates - something the administration is already investigating, by its own reports - or to exclude certain services. The result of this unknown combination of duplicity and ineptitude has been a signifcant loss of confidence in the Administration in some quarters of the electorate that previously supported it.

What the hell does "... the modernization of mecical practices ..." really mean???? The President has assured us that the government will not interfere in doctor-patient relationships; the administration has refused to consider tort limitations to reduce the potential liabilities that motivate "defensive medicine"; you have asserted they will not cut medicare reinmbursement rates. So what is left????

There are several versions of proposed legislation under review in the Congress, and the details do keep changing. However, the CBO's verdict on the House bill which completed several Committee reviews was that it will be a huge cause of future deficits - despite the Administation's claims to the contrary.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 03:23 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

You consistently distort things apparently to suit your purposes. I have noted the repeated claims of the president to"reap huge savings on Medicare", but without any detail as to how he will do it.


You still refuse to provide a single link to any actual speech the President has given, or any actual proposal the Dems have put forth. There is no reason to believe that your claim of the 'repeated claims' of the president has any merit; I don't believe that he has made those claims, and you are unwilling to provide evidence that he did, so you don't really have an argument here. You have an assertion. Assertions are weak. You know this.

Quote:
I have noted here that the only levers the law provides are for the government to reduce reinbursement rates - something the administration is already investigating, by its own reports - or to exclude certain services. The result of this unknown combination of duplicity and ineptitude has been a signifcant loss of confidence in the Administration in some quarters of the electorate that previously supported it.


Where is your evidence, that the only levers the law provides are reducing rates? You have none, only assertions. Where is your evidence that the WH is considering reducing rates? You have none, only your assertions. Weak sauce and it doesn't add to the discussion. I seriously think that you are making **** up, George. I am accusing you of either fabricating arguments or misunderstanding what has been said.

You can clear this up real quick by, yaknow, linking to something. Anything. That provides corroborating evidence for your positions.

Quote:
What the hell does "... the modernization of mecical practices ..." really mean????


It means moving to electronic records collection and data management, an area in which the medical industry is woefully behind and a cause of a huge amount of waste and mismanagement of funds. But, the slightest bit of research on your part would have revealed this; why didn't you bother to do it, before asking?

Quote:
The President has assured us that the government will not interfere in doctor-patient relationships; the administration has refused to consider tort limitations to reduce the potential liabilities that motivate "defensive medicine"; you have asserted they will not cut medicare reinmbursement rates. So what is left????


Raising taxes is what is left, George, and consistently what I have said will happen, and what various plans in Congress say will happen.

Quote:
There are several versions of proposed legislation under review in the Congress, and the details do keep changing. However, the CBO's verdict on the House bill which completed several Committee reviews was that it will be a huge cause of future deficits - despite the Administation's claims to the contrary.


The CBO didn't score a bill with the Public Option included. As this is a primary driver of cost savings, they didn't really look at the actual plan.

This refusal on your part to link to actual evidence, and to argue from assertion, is childish, George. There's no reason anyone here should take your word as factual on these issues; you are creating Straw man arguments constantly these days, by presenting situations which do not factually match our real world.

Other posters, when asked to provide evidence for their position, happily - or at least reluctantly - do so. You do not. What does that say about you?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 05:34 pm
Since Barney Frank never once, to the best of my knowledge, complained about all of the signs from the dems and the left that showed Bush with a Hitler mustache, his complaints now ring hollow and are meaningless.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 05:37 pm
@panzade,
Quote:
The placard comparing Obama to Hitler is all the information we need to discern that this person isn't interested in reasoned debate.


So then you would agree that the placard comparing Bush to Hitler is all the information we need to discern that this person isn't interested in reasoned debate.

So then you would agree that the left, during the Bush admin, wasnt interested in reasoned debate?
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 05:45 pm
@mysteryman,
If you limit the question to signs comparing Bush to Hitler, the answer is obviously yes.

mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 05:52 pm
@roger,
And since those signs showed up every place Bush was, it makes it real tough to believe that the left wanted "reasoned debate".
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 05:59 pm
Why don't we take it back eight years before that, mysteryman? Would you say that the rabid right's use of "Herr Clintler" and "Hitlery", as terms for the Clintons, including by our own resident wacko gungasnake, indicates that the right had no desire for reasoned debate even before Bush stole the presidency? That's THE RIGHT, all the right, just as you're generalizing about the left.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 06:11 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
So then you would agree that the placard comparing Bush to Hitler is all the information we need to discern that this person isn't interested in reasoned debate.


Yes.

However, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember the GOP holding town meetings on things like...ahh ...whether to invade Iraq.

Quote:
So then you would agree that the left, during the Bush admin, wasnt interested in reasoned debate?


see above
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  4  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 07:45 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

So then you would agree that the left, during the Bush admin, wasnt interested in reasoned debate?

So you're saying this woman is representative of the right?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 08:06 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Since Barney Frank never once, to the best of my knowledge, complained about all of the signs from the dems and the left that showed Bush with a Hitler mustache, his complaints now ring hollow and are meaningless.

Spare us your poutrage.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 08:08 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
So then you would agree that the placard comparing Bush to Hitler is all the information we need to discern that this person isn't interested in reasoned debate.

So then you would agree that the left, during the Bush admin, wasnt interested in reasoned debate?

Taking an individual's shortcomings, and extrapolating it to cover everyone on "the left" would be like my taking your argument and thereby assuming that everyone on "the right" is incapable of logical reasoning.

Edit: I see that MontereyJack and Freeduck already called "bullshit" on this one.
0 Replies
 
Sglass
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 01:58 am
Poor Barney Frank.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 06:52 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I don't think that president Obama is at all like Hitler. However, the evident conviction of him, his supporters and the Democrat leaders in the Congress that they alone know what is really good for us, and the assertions of many of them that they will go ahead regardless of the expressed opposition, is certainly reminiscent of an authoritarian frame of mind. I believe many people have come to the same conclusion.

I don't know where you were during the election george but Obama and the democrats were elected by a majority of the voters. To claim they are being authoritarian when they do what they were elected to do in spite of a vocal minority reeks of a complete disregard for the democratic process of a civilized republic. Did you really want to create that impression george? Are you simply unwilling to accept that elected majorities in the US are allowed to govern in spite of the idiots on either side that will disagree with anything they do?

I don't think what the democrats are doing is reminiscent at all of an authoritarian frame of mind. I think your desire to accuse them of it sounds more like someone that wishes they were the authoritarian in control.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 08:05 am
@panzade,
panzade wrote:

Quote:
What information do we have which tends to support that?


oh stop with the dummy routine

The placard comparing Obama to Hitler is all the information we need to discern that this person isn't interested in reasoned debate.

I wasn't discussing whether she was interested in reasoned debate. I was arguing about your assertion that she was unable to support her position with reasoned debate. What we know for sure is that Barney Frank took decided to hurl insults rather than attempt to support his position.
old europe
 
  6  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 08:20 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
What we know for sure is that Barney Frank took decided to hurl insults rather than attempt to support his position.


What we also know for sure is that he did so in reaction to a woman hurling insults rather than attempting to support her position. What we also know is that she compared Obama to Hitler and effectively called Frank a Nazi, while he, in response to that, compared her to a dining room table.

It seems that if you want to take issue with Frank's reaction, you should despise her initial insults in lieu of a reasoned argument even more.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 08:54 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
What we know for sure is that Barney Frank took decided to hurl insults rather than attempt to support his position.

More poutrage from you, but nothing substantial. Frank was on site and made a judgment.
0 Replies
 
 

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