Some idiots actually think the NFL is wrong for giving Vick a 2nd chance.

Correct, ossobuco, but perhaps that fact simply cannot be integrated within the cartoon image of conservatives fashioned by some for their collective entertainment.

I don't cede judgment only to God. If I did, what would be the standing of our judical system? And I certainly don't cede anything but legal judgment to our judical system.

I have judged Vick and find him despicable.

I do cede the susbtantive punishment for the guilty to our legal system and it has metted out what it feels is appropriate for Vick's crimes. All this means however is that I cannot punish Vick in any of the methods in which the state controls: execution, imprisonment, fines, reduction in legal rights.

I do not owe Vick the second chance he never gave any of the dogs he tortured and murdered. I am not refrained from scorning him publicly, from refusing to purhase any product he endorses, or hoping his NFL career fails. The state decides his punishment, but it is based on legal calculus not moral. We would like to think it involves the latter but there are far too many examples of immoral judgments rendered to accept that fantasy.

Everyone is guilty of transgressions. Often the appropriate punishment for which is the personal shame they feel, but as the scope and nature of the trangression expands, so should the punishment.

I really know nothing about Vick's background, nor do I think it matters.

Not every poor kid born in a house with negligent parents tortures animal, deals drugs, mugs, rapes or murders. These factors may more readily lead the individal to the opportunity for crimes, but they do not force the individual to commit them. The test to resist may be greater but so too is the reward for resistance. And that reward is not material and it need not even be spiritual if you can't abide such notions, but it is reward of true self-esteem and confidence that it bound to reverberate for the rest of the individual's life.

And this is not similar to someone shooting a wild deer. Humans have breed dogs to adore us, to have unfaltering loyalty, to sacrifice themselves for us. We took wild animals that would never allow us to subject them to the abuse Vick heaped upon his dogs, and created creatures that are capable of loving us, even when we abuse them. The betrayal that is pet abuse is horrendous.

Vick's redemption will not be bought with a prison sentence or a fine, nor a circuit of speaking arrangements. It don't expect it matters one iota to Vick, but I don't believe that he is truly on the road to redemption, and since, whether we want to admit or not we all judge people every single day of our lives, I've judged him, and Tucker Carlson saying he should have got the death penalty on national TV ain't all that much of a punishment.

If Christians want to give him a pass they're more than willing to. I can understand their thinking, I just don't agree with it.

I have expressed the fact numerously in the political threads because in most of these threads religion (and in particular anti-Christian sentiment) is quite common. Defending Christians and being a Christian are too different things.

I quit reading any of your posts for several months, because there was too much antagonism between us.

Fair enough

We have not changed, but my attitude has adjusted slightly.

I still do not share your political or social views. However, I have begun to see your human side a bit of late and that appeals to me.

Nah - anybody can do that, finn. Even you.

I'd say that justice would be that the next time Vick loses a game, he be put down--in a strictly humane way, of course.

Why would I? It's not a holy text for me and I don't try and demonstrate how Christians are hypocrites.

with or without christian mores, reveling in his shame is kinda ugly and small...

Ahh, so you agree with me on our right to judge people? Be careful, you may get the Bible quoted to you.

I agree that reveling in someone's shame would be ugly.

If I knew him to be scourged by shame I would revel in his redemption, not the pain of his shame.

I suppose it depends in large measure on how serious one believe his crimes were.

To me, and I expect to Tucker Carlson, they were horrific.

There's no need for me to repeat my explanation for why I do.

you've the right to whatever opinions you wish to hold.

trot them out in front of me, then I get to ridicule if I see fit.

I've had you on the financial side of the conservative bandwagon for a while.

and scripture usually makes for a weak argument.

but a2k is full of weak arguments, so what the hell...

have a great year.

I agree entirely, and took no offense to being judged. You were simply wrong in your judgment.

Have a happy New Year as well

I'm no fan of torturing dogs.
I can understand people getting into it where they live, from play and then from non connection. How many of the the naysayers lived his life?


Preachathon, I suppose it is useful for some, but connection with dogs is better.

So, all of us who hate this stuff, want to crucify all of those who get into it in their lives?

I think that if Vick gets a clue, and more clues, this is good.

Osso: Happy New year to you. I always smile when I see your replies...even if I don't always agree or understand your replies. (meant as good natured ribbing).

I understand them, at least usually, but too damn much trouble to explain.

Be well, Rags.

Happy New Year, ossobuco!

Merely responding in kind to your "compliment" - C&Ping bible verses takes no special talent or industriousness, so I can't do it any "better" than you or anyone else.

and to you, wimmie, or your preferred short name. Wmj?

That would be fine, wnj.