Was Jesus a Historical Figure?

@Foxfyre,

Zesus father god/human children if my memory is serving me well.

@BillRM,

It isn't important but I'll accept your answer that you choose to disbelieve and challenge the existence of Jesus, despite a lot of evidence that he lived, while you don't question the existence of any of those other historical figures. My curiosity about why that is the case shall apparently remain unsatisfied.

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@Foxfyre,

In some of Zeus' human liaisons, he used devious disguises. When he seduced the Spartan queen Leda, he transformed himself into a beautiful swan, and from the egg which Leda produced, two sets of twins were born: Castor and Polydeuces and Clytemnestra and Helen of Troy.

He visited princess Danae as a shower of gold, and from this union the hero Perseus was born. He abducted the Phoenician princess Europa, disguised as a bull, then carried her on his back to the island of Crete where she bore three sons: Minos, Rhadamanthys and Sarpedon. Zeus also took as a lover the Trojan prince Ganymede. He was abducted by an eagle sent by Zeus (some legends believe it was Zeus disguised as an eagle). The prince was taken to Mount Olympus, where he became Zeus' cup-bearer.

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@Foxfyre,

There is solid proof of the real men lives and that is why I am inclined to think that they exist. In the case of Alexander a mountain of proof and there is near zero evidence of a real living man by the name of Jesus.

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@BillRM,

I accept that you believe that Bill just as you said it. I'm just saying that there is more evidence of the existence of Jesus than for many of those other people I named. Yet you don't question them while you very much seem to want to believe that there was no Jesus. I was just wondering why.

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@Foxfyre,

Focfyre there is no evidnece but for a few writtings that show clear signs of being change and or added to over the centuries.

You seem to have a real emotional need to have some proof but emotionals need does not create proof out of thin air or out of some very questionable writings.

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@BillRM,

No emotional need at all Bill. I have all the evidence I need because I am Christian. My observation is simply personal curiosity regarding why it is so important to some people that Jesus not be real when they do not question or work so hard to discredit other historical figures for whom there is far less evidence of their existence. Why would the fact that there was a Jesus of Nazareth be so presumably threatening?

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@Foxfyre,

You do know that faith is not the same as evidence or don't you!

Second a cult leader one of millions in the sad history of the human race is not threatenign if he exist however that does not change the facts that there is almost zero evidence of such a man walking the earth.

A similar cult leader by the name of Muhammad no one is questioning here that he was a real live human being because we once more, as in the case of Alexandre have a mountain of evidence.

Muhammad with solid proof that he was a living human. Jesus with almost no evidence and zero evidence that there is no quesion concerning.

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Whether Christ did, or did not live, has nothing at all to do with what the churches teach, or with what we believe, It is wholly a matter of evidence. It is a question of science.

The question is--what does history say?

And that question must be settled in the court of historical criticism. If the thinking world is to hold to the position that Christ was a real character, there must be sufficient evidence to warrant that belief.

If no evidence for his existence can be found; if history returns the verdict that his name is not inscribed upon her scroll, if it be found that his story was created by art and ingenuity, like the stories of fictitious heroes, he will have to take his place with the host of other demigods whose fancied lives and deeds make up the mythology of the world.

What, then, is the evidence that Jesus Christ lived in this world as a man?

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@Kenson,

YOUR ARE A TROLL.....nice meeting you Mr. Troll.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

No emotional need at all Bill. I have all the evidence I need because I am Christian. My observation is simply personal curiosity regarding why it is so important to some people that Jesus not be real when they do not question or work so hard to discredit other historical figures for whom there is far less evidence of their existence. Why would the fact that there was a Jesus of Nazareth be so presumably threatening?

So, why would a believing Christian bother about a thread of this nature?

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Are there several races of troll?
Trolls average seven feet in height and three hundred pounds in weight?

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

No emotional need at all Bill. I have all the evidence I need because I am Christian. My observation is simply personal curiosity regarding why it is so important to some people that Jesus not be real when they do not question or work so hard to discredit other historical figures for whom there is far less evidence of their existence. Why would the fact that there was a Jesus of Nazareth be so presumably threatening?

So, why would a believing Christian bother about a thread of this nature?

I teach and write adult curriculum on the development of Christian thought that includes a lot of Jewish and Christian history. The geological, archaeological, and written records/histories of those ancient times is fascinating to me. So, I chose to enter into a discussion of the historical evidence. I'm much more amateur at human psychology but that subject interests me too. I understand why people would reject the theology. But I do wonder what factors are involved that make some so threatened that there might have been a Jesus of Nazareth and so eager to dismiss the historical evidence?

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@Foxfyre,

You teach that there are solid evidences that Jesus exist that compare to such figures as Alexradra the Great and Muhammad?

I am happy in that your teaching is directed at adults and not our children.

Hell it is bad enough that you are teaching adults such misinforamtion.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

But I do wonder what factors are involved that make some so threatened that there might have been a Jesus of Nazareth and so eager to dismiss the historical evidence?

Makes me wonder too. Being raised Jewish, I never heard any other Jews claim He might not have existed. I have heard (from other Jews) that He was a very wise Rabbi. The fact that Judaism does not accept His divinity does not mean there is no respect and admiration for His wisdom.

The standard tours in Israel includes a lot of Christian history. I have heard from someone, that took one of these tours , that one almost feels that time stands still in the places that Jesus walked. It has not changed in two-thousand years. Perhaps, the Holy Land is on BCE time?

Also, surely there are people that do not accept literally the burning bush story, with Moses then having two tablets to give to those at the bottom of Mount Sinai. However, the content of the Ten Commandments is not rejected by many of those that do not take the origin story literally. This only makes me wonder more, why try to fictionalize Jesus' existence? His message, for living one's life, is what counts, in my opinion.

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@Foofie,

Foofie there is no real evidence that such a man exist that is why we happen to question if he did exist or did not exist.

Kind of simple on one hand a moutain of evidence that Muhammad was a real man and almost zero that such a character as Jesus exist.

I assume that for some reason you are of the opinion that evidence should not matter and we should just assume that such a man did walk the earth?

Could not be a simpler matter if the same or even near same amount of evidence was at hand that Jesus was a real living human being as Muhammad then there would be no question. That is not the case here.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

You teach that there are solid evidences that Jesus exist that compare to such figures as Alexradra the Great and Muhammad?

I am happy in that your teaching is directed at adults and not our children.

Hell it is bad enough that you are teaching adults such misinforamtion.

What I said is that there is far more evidence for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth than there is for many other historical figures who are not questioned as to whether they existed. Alexander was one in a much longer list that I cited and that longer list included a tiny fraction of people who could have been included on it.

So again, why are you so eager to discredit the existence of Jesus and not those other characters?

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

But I do wonder what factors are involved that make some so threatened that there might have been a Jesus of Nazareth and so eager to dismiss the historical evidence?

Makes me wonder too. Being raised Jewish, I never heard any other Jews claim He might not have existed. I have heard (from other Jews) that He was a very wise Rabbi. The fact that Judaism does not accept His divinity does not mean there is no respect and admiration for His wisdom.

The standard tours in Israel includes a lot of Christian history. I have heard from someone, that took one of these tours , that one almost feels that time stands still in the places that Jesus walked. It has not changed in two-thousand years. Perhaps, the Holy Land is on BCE time?

Also, surely there are people that do not accept literally the burning bush story, with Moses then having two tablets to give to those at the bottom of Mount Sinai. However, the content of the Ten Commandments is not rejected by many of those that do not take the origin story literally. This only makes me wonder more, why try to fictionalize Jesus' existence? His message, for living one's life, is what counts, in my opinion.

This is true. Christians, who include the Old Testament along with the New in their Bible, are sometimes widely divided on many of the facts of the Old Testament. For instance, was Abraham a real person or symbolic of a group of people who evolved into the modern Jews? Some Christians are convinced he was real. Others are less certain. All we have for proof of his existence is in the reliability of and confidence in the oral tradition that was eventually written down, so belief that Abraham existed could indeed be a matter of faith. The history of King David is a also bit sketchy with room to reasonably question some of the stories about him, but there is also verifiable archaeological evidence making it much more difficult to dismiss him as a historical figure who lived.

The evidence for the existence of Jesus is significant and, while I understand how people reject the theology involving him and how some of the stories about him can be reasonably questioned, I think his existence can be rationally dismissed only by those who are so threatened by that existence that they must ironically deny it on faith.

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@Foxfyre,

You make a claim that you are not willing or able to back up that a large fraction of accepted historic figures have the same level of proof or lack of same as Jesus.

You even gave a list that was beyond being silly. I love you placing Alexandra the Great on that list!

Why did you not place George Washington on the list at the same time?

Sorry anyone with the same lack of proof as Jesus should be question as a matter of course that however is not true for most accepted historic figures in spit of you silly claims otherwise.

Repeating misinformation a thousand times over does not change that misiformation to facts my friend.

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@BillRM,

Why are you convinced that evidence of Alexander is more reliable than that of Jesus? Do you have pictures? Sworn affidavits? A time capsule with revealing evidence? Or do you trust the archaeological evidence, written histories, and testimonies of his feats and accomplishments based on faith alone? Would it be impossible that most of what we believe about him is myth to support an evolving Hellenistic concept? What of Aristotle, purported to be Alexander's tutor? Do you accept that he lived? What evidence do you have for that which is more compelling than the evidence that exists for Jesus? Or Plato, Aristotle's tutor? How do we know that they were not just mythical father figures to explain a unique body of Western thought? You have no questions about the authenticity or validity of these icons of history?

The argument for the existence of Jesus already laid out in this thread is as compelling and as reasonable as are the stories of Plato, Aristotle, and Alexander. You do not question that the last three lived and you do not question their written histories.

So why did you ignore the evidence of Jesus that was offered? And why are you so anxious to deny it? I am not ragging on you about this as I certainly have no stake in what you do or do not believe. But it is a matter of interest to me why Jesus seems to be so threatening to so many and would be interested in your response.

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Was Jesus a Historical Figure?

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