Was Jesus a Historical Figure?

http://mnatheists.org/content/view/111/34/





Tacitus

56 -120 CE noted Roman historian, in his Annuals 14-68 CE Book 15, chapter 44 written about 115CE gives the first non-Christian reference to Christ as a man executed in Judea by Pontius Pilate. The pagan Tacitus states "Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate." Scholars point out several reasons to suspect this statement was not from Tacitus or any Roman records, but instead a later insertion in Tacitus’ Annuals. #1. Pilate is referred to as "procurator" which is appropriate in Tacitus’ day, but in Pilate’s day the correct title was "prefect". #2. If Tacitus obtained his information from Roman records, the records would have referred to a Jesus son of Joseph or Jesus of Nazareth, not Christ. The word Christ is a title not a name and strongly suggests the Tacitus quote was a later insertion based on Christian tradition. #3 If Tacitus’s comment was written in the early 2nd Century, why didn’t later church fathers who all sought to find proofs for Jesus historicity such as Tertullian, Clement, Origen, even Eusebius (Father of Church History) once quote Tacitus? #4 Tacitus is not quoted by any Christian writer prior to the 15th Century. This quotations inaccuracy and lack of use strongly suggest it is a later insertion by an anxious apologist.
The clear and indisputable fact is 80 to 100 years is a suspiciously long time after alleged events of such magnitude for such minimal credible written recognition . Further, the brevity and scarceness of substantive fact in these three writings relative to the claim that this was about a miracle working Jewish Messiah named Jesus who was God in human flesh, crucified, and resurrected clearly calls into question the credibility of these writings.

Rabbinic literature

I will check your links out the one problem is that christians have a known long and proud history of forging documents and other proofs so one does need to digg into any claims with some little care. See the Tacitus example of this.

In fact even just two hundred years ago in our own history you can see this in claims concerning our founding fathers positions on faith. I call it lying for Jesus.

Forgery or not - read any biography depending on how I write it. I can stick to the truth and still make the same person nice or not all depeding on whom I ask.
You might get along very well with Mrs X because the two of you love to talk about the garden. I can´t stand her because she always tells me how awful my garden looks. We are both right.

You guys every wonder why the Vatican keep a closed archives of material dating back to the beginning of the church?

Why would matters over a thousand years old need to be kept from the public and more important from scholars?

One could see why a cult would need to do that to protect it version of the truth but the very mother church base on the ‘real’ life of Jesus.

How could any written material be harmful to a church worshiping the real son of god?

I don't recall off hand the passage you cite though it is undisputable that Tacitus did write about Christianity--he didn't like it--and also of Nero's dealings with Christianity. I think it not unusual that an Atheist site would presume to discredit any references to the central figure of Christianity though. Atheism has made its religion that of disputing other religions or whatever those religions are based on. In my own studies and resources, some of the world's most recognized scholars have cast doubt on certain Jewish and Christian writings and passages as being authentic, and because they had no motive to discredit such writings, I trust their conclusions. Not a single one of these, even among those who do not accept the divinity of Jesus, concluded that he did not exist, however.

The Vatican Secret Archives (Latin: Archivum Secretum Vaticanum), located in the Vatican City, is the central repository for all of the acts promulgated by the Holy See. These archives also contain the state papers, correspondence, papal account books, and many other documents which the church has accumulated over the centuries. In the 17th century, under the orders of Pope Paul V, the Secret Archives were removed from the Vatican Library and remained absolutely closed to Vatican outsiders until the late 19th century, when they were opened by Pope Leo XIII.

Almost all organisations with archives have time restrictions on when their documents may be opened to the public, lest any documents have sensitive information that would be damaging if released. The Vatican Archives is no exception. Customarily, documents are made available to the public after a period of 75 years. The Secret Archives are still separately housed.

In 1883, Pope Leo XIII opened archives dated 1815 or earlier to non-clerical scholars. (The first papal historian to make fundamental use of the Secret Archives was the sympathetic historian of the Papacy, Ludwig von Pastor.) Documents were next released in 1924, when the Secret Archives became open up to the end of the pontificate of Gregory XVI (June 1, 1846). Since then, the secret archives of subsequent pontificates have been opened as follows:

* 1966: Documents from the pontificate of Pius IX (1846"78). Note that the opening of Pius IX's pontificate was originally planned during the pontificate of Pius XII.
* 1978: Documents from the pontificate of Leo XIII (1878"1903).
* 1985: From the pontificates of Pius X (1903"14) and Benedict XV (1914"22).

On 20 February 2002, Pope John Paul II took the extraordinary step of making available, beginning in 2003, some of the documents from the Historical Archives of the Secretariat of State (Second Section), which pertain to the Vatican's relations with Germany during the pontificate of Pope Pius XI (1922"39). The Vatican's reason for this action was "to put an end to unjust and thoughtless speculation."

In June 2006, Pope Benedict XVI authorized opening of all the Vatican Archives for the pontificate of Pope Pius XI. However, the files are not yet available for public review.

When you begin even a fast search of the facts supporting the real Jesus you run into the liklihood that this evidence was manufactor out of thin air or writing was change greatly see below.

http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/Testimonium_of_Josephus.html

As I said christians have a two centuries history creating forgeries and if the church have nothing to hide concerning matters over a thousand years old why not open the archieves?

Keep the material only 500 hundred years old secret and release the rest.

Smoke and mirror indeed.

There is zero evident of a real Jesus that is not in great question for good reasons.

Sorry not a two centuries I mean a known 10 centuries or more history of forgeries.

How much do you think has been turned and twisted over the centuries regarding politics
Probably even more than in religion.
You don´t believe Jesus was a historical figure. You will be able to find plenty of things which confirms this.
I believe Jesus was a historical figure. I will be able to find plenty of things which confirms this.
Whatever we change our minds or not - we will live happily with our belief.

Well as I been saying there is zero sold proof one way or another if there was such a cult leader in that time period by that name.

What solid proof is there that Tutankhamun existed? Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon? Cyrus of Persia? Alexander? Socrates? Aristotle? Ptolemy and Cleopatra? Augustine? Constantine? Ghenghis Khan? What we have are the archaeological record, symbols, relics, writings, and fragments of written histories that support informed conclusions that such people lived.

With the wealth of writings, eye witness testimonies, archaeological record, symbols, relics, and profound far reaching influence, there is no reasonable informed conclusion that supports that Jesus of Nazareth did not live. Evenmoreso that the story was advanced by those who put their very lives at risk and suffered unconscionably cruel treatment, torture, and death to advance it.

If you had to pick any sort of a major historical figure who might in fact have never existed or lived, the top candidate is Charlemagne. Jesus is not even on that list.

Well, yes I'd think that would be the proper thing to do.

Alexander! Hmm a body that many witnesses had seen and reported on for centuries after his death located in a city by his name that he founded.

Writings from that time period concerning his deeds and his father deeds some lost with the burning of the great library but the books that was lost being quoted by many others for centuries during the time that the library exist.

The ruins of cities his army had destroy during his campaigning and the record of those campaigns both by his followers and his enemies. Hell he did travel with Greek scholars along almost in the same manner Napoleon did a thousand plus years later in the same area of the world.

Whole nations that were formed after his dead by his lieutenants the rulers of and their lines afterward with solid documents and on and on.

A great big mountain of evidence located over a large fraction of the then known world and all interlocking nicely.

In other word a million or so times beyond what is needed to prove that a person was real and very very unlike the Jesus story.

You sure demanded a lot!
In German I found 189 000 items on Google
In English 13 800 000
As the subject is taught in the majority of the universities in USA and the rest of the world besides all theological semenaries I can only give you a short list of all books, articles etc ever written.

* Akers, Keith. The Lost Religion of Jesus (ISBN 1-930051-26-3).
* Albright, William F. Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan: An Historical Analysis of Two Contrasting Faiths (ISBN 0-931464-01-3).
* Badenas, Robert. Christ the End of the Law, Romans 10.4 in Pauline Perspective (ISBN 0-905774-93-0).
* Blomberg, Craig L. The Historical Reliablility of the Gospels (ISBN 0-87784-992-7).
* Bornkamm, Gunther. Jesus of Nazareth (Hodder & Stoughton, 1960).
* Brandon, Samuel George Frederick. Jesus and the Zealots: a study of political factor in primitive Christianity (Manchester University Press; 1967).
* Brandon, Samuel George Frederick. The Trial of Jesus of Nazareth (London: Batsford; 1968).
* Brown,Raymond E.. An Introduction to the New Testament (1996, ISBN 0-385-24767-2).
* Browne, Sir Thomas. Pseudodoxia Epidemica (6th edition, 1672, V:vi).
* Bultmann, Rudolf Karl. Jesus Christ and Mythology (Scribner's, New York; c. 1958).
* Carlyle, Thomas. On Heroes and Hero-Worship: and the Heroic in History (Ward, Lock & Bowden, 1896).
* Carmichael, Joel. The Death of Jesus (Gollancz, 1963).
* Cohen, Shaye J.D. From the Maccabees to the Mishnah (1988, ISBN 0-664-25017-3).
* Craig,William Lane. The Son Rises: The Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus (ISBN 1-57910-464-9).
* Craig,William Lane. Will the Real Jesus Please Stand Up?: A Debate Between William Lane Craig and John Dominic Crossan (ISBN 0-8010-2175-8).
* Crossan, John Dominic. Who Killed Jesus?: Exposing the Roots of Anti-Semitism in the Gospel Story of the Death of Jesus
* Davenport, Guy and Urrutia, Benjamin. The Logia of Yeshua: The Sayings of Jesus (ISBN 1-887178-70-8).
* Dibelius, Martin. Jesus: a study of the Gospels (S.C.M.Press; 1963).
* Dunn, James D.G "Jimmy". Jesus, Paul and the Law (ISBN 0-664-25095-5).
* Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, 1883.
* Eisler, Robert. The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist, according to Flavius Josephus’ ’Capture of Jerusalem’ (Methuen; 1931).
* Ehrman, Bart. Jesus: apocalyptic prophet of the new millennium (ISBN 0-19-512474-X).
* Ehrman, Bart. The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings (ISBN 0-19-515462-2).
* Fredriksen, Paula. Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews: A Jewish Life and the Emergence of Christianity (ISBN 0-679-76746-0).
* Fredriksen, Paula. From Jesus to Christ: The Origins of the New Testament Images of Christ (ISBN 0-300-08457-9, ISBN 0-300-04018-0).
* Funk, Robert W. The Five Gospels: What Did Jesus Really Say? The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus.
* Hart, Michael H. The 100: a ranking of the most influential persons in history (New York: Hart Pub. Co., c 1978. ). Jesus is ranked #3 in this list of the most influential figures in history.
* Hoskyns, Sir Edwyn Clement and Davey, Noel. The Riddle of the New Testament (Faber and Faber, 1931).
* Jack, James William. The Historic Christ. An examination of Dr. Robert Eisler’s theory according to the Slavonic version of Josephus and the other sources (J. Clarke & Co., London; 1933).
* Johnson, Luke Timothy. The Real Jesus: The Misguided Quest for the Historical Jesus and the Truth of the Traditional Gospels (HarperOne, 1997).
* Käsemann, Ernst. Jesus means freedom: a polemical survey of the New Testament (London: SCM, 1969).
* Kierkegaard, Soren. Training in Christianity, and the Edifying Discourse which ’accompanied’ it (Oxford University Press; 1941).
* Lewis, C.S. Mere Christianity. A book on Christianity and logical support for Jesus as God, from an Anglo-Catholic perspective (ISBN 0-06-065292-6).
* Maccoby, Hyam Zoundell. Revolution in Judea. Jesus and the Jewish resistance (London: Ocean Books, 1973).
* Maccoby, Hyam Zoundell. Jesus the Pharisee (London: SCM Press; 2003).
* In Quest of the Hero (Mythos Series): by Otto Rank, Lord Fitzroy Richard Somerset Raglan, includes "The hero pattern and the life of Jesus" by Alan Dundes (Princeton University Press; 1990).
* McDowell, Josh. Evidence that Demands a Verdict. Two volumes looking at Jesus from the point of view of evidence. (Vol I: ISBN 0-918956-46-3 , Vol. II: ISBN 0-918956-73-0)
* Meier, John P. A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, 3 vols (ISBN 0-385-26425-9).
* Mendenhall, George E. The Tenth Generation: The Origins of the Biblical Tradition (The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1973. ISBN 0-8018-1654-8). A study of the earliest traditions of Israel from linguistic and archaeological evidence which also treats the teachings and followers of Jesus in that context.
* Mendenhall, George E. Ancient Israel's Faith and History: An Introduction to the Bible in Context (Westminster John Knox Press, 2001. ISBN 0-664-22313-3). Another, less technical, study of the earliest traditions of Israel from linguistic and archaeological evidence which also treats the teachings and followers of Jesus in that context.
* Messori, Vittorio. Jesus hypotheses (St Paul Publications, 1977, ISBN 0-85439-154-1). The translation from Italian Ipotesi su Gesù. A book which initially explores the question of Jesus from two secular points of view, mythical (Jesus never lived) and critical (Jesus was not God) and finally considers a third hypothesis - faith.
* Metzger, Bruce. The New Testament Canon, page 254.
* Morison, Frank. Who Moved the Stone? A discussion of the Trial, Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ (Faber & Faber, London; 1930). Frank Morison was the pseudonym of Albert Henry Ross.
* Pelikan, Jaroslav. Jesus Through the Centuries: His Place in the History of Culture Yale University Press (1985, hardcover, 270 pages, ISBN 0-300-03496-2; trade paperback, HarperCollins reprint, 304 pages, ISBN 0-06-097080-4; trade paperback, Yale University Press, 1999, 320 pages, ISBN 0-300-07987-7).
* Phipps, William E. Was Jesus married? The distortion of sexuality in the Christian tradition (Harper, 1970).
* Reimarus, Hermann Samuel,(1694-1768). The goal of Jesus and his disciples (Leiden: E. J. Brill; 1970).
* Renan, Joseph Ernest. The Life of Jesus (Trübner & Co., London; 1864).
* Robinson, John Arthur Thomas. Honest to God (London: SCM, 1963).
* Sanders, E.P.. The historical figure of Jesus (Penguin, 1996, ISBN 0-14-014499-4). An up-to-date, popular, but thoroughly scholarly book.
* Sanders, E.P.. Jesus and Judaism (Fortress Press, 1987, ISBN 0-8006-2061-5). More specialistic than the previous book, though not inaccessible.
* Schaberg, Jane. Illegitimacy of Jesus: A Feminist Theological Interpretation of the Infancy Narratives
* Schillebeeckx,Edward, Christ, the sacrament of the encounter with God (Sheed and W., 1963, 1977).
* Schweitzer, Albert. The Quest of the Historical Jesus: a critical study of its progress from Reimarus to Wrede (A & C Black, London; 1910).
* Shorto, Russell. Gospel Truth, The New Image of Jesus Emerging from Science and History, and Why It Matters (ISBN 1-57322-056-6 New York, Riverhead Books, 1997).
* Strauss, David Friedrich. A new Life of Jesus, written for the use of the German People (London, 1865). Originally published in 2 volumes in 1865.
* Strauss, David Friedrich. The Christ of faith and the Jesus of history: a critique of Schleiermacher’s Life of Jesus (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, c 1977). Originally published in 1865.
* Swami Paramananda. Hidden Teachings in the Bible (ISBN 99903-23-41-0). From what Jesus proclaimed in the Bible to what Krishna taught in the Bhagvad Gita, expertly unravelled and expressed by the author, the reader is inevitably led to the realisation of his unity with God and creation.
* Talmage, James E. Jesus the Christ(Deseret Enterprises Ltd., 1970).
* Theissen, Gerd, and Annette Merz. The Historical Jesus: A Comprehensive Guide (Fortress Press, 2003, ISBN 0-8006-3122-6). An amazing book, tough but rewarding, exceptionally detailed.
* Theissen, Gerd. The Shadow of the Galilean: The Quest of the Historical Jesus in Narrative Form (Fortress Press).
* Thiede, Carsten Peter. Jesus: Man or Myth? (Lion Hudson Plc; 2005).
* Tolstoy, Leo. The Kingdom of God is Within You (ISBN 0-8032-9404-2).
* Vermes, Geza. Jesus the Jew: A Historian's Reading of the Gospels (ISBN 0-8006-1443-7).
* Walvoord, John F. Jesus Christ Our Lord. (Moody Press, 1969 ISBN 0-8024-4326-5).
* Watchtower. The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived (1990).
* White, Ellen G. The Desire of Ages (Pacific Press Publishing Association; 1940).
* Wilson, Ian. Jesus: The Evidence (ISBN 0-297-83529-7).
* Witherington III, Ben. The Jesus Quest: The Third Search for the Jew of Nazareth (InterVarsity Press; 1997).
* Wrede, William. The Messianic Secret in the Gospels (Cambridge, James Clarke; 1971). Originally published in 1901.
* Wright, N.T.. Jesus and the Victory of God, (SPCK, London; 1996 ISBN 0-281-04717-0). Second in a projected massive five or six volume series on Christian origins, dealing with the life and death of Christ from a very open Evangelical perspective. The author is now Bishop of Durham (Church of England).
* Yoder, John H.. The Politics of Jesus (ISBN 0-8028-0734-8).
* Yogananda, Paramahansa. The Second Coming of Christ (ISBN 0-87612-555-0).
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/the-historical-jesus-faq.htm

Peter Walker I Jesu fotspår

Second Foxfyre no one can disprove a negative and it is not my burden to disprove that a man in that time period that was a cult leader exist or did not exist.

You can in fact not disprove that Zeus or the same god by the name Jupiter does not exist or that Scientology teaching that we are on a prison planet for souls is not true for that matter.

Getting back to the real universe many people had given their lives and been torture because of their belief system that does not given those believes any more weight however then they would have otherwise.

You sure demanded a lot!
In German I found 189 000 items on Google
In English 13 800 000
As the subject is taught in the majority of the universities in USA and the rest of the world besides all theological semenaries I can only give you a short list of all books, articles etc ever written.
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What a shameful waste of many many lifetimes.

To the best of my knowledge there are no serious eye witness accounts of anyone having met up, talked to, or had any close encounters of the third kind with Zeus. Nor do I believe anyone ever suggested that Zeus was anything other than a god.

My point wasn't to split hairs but to simply provide a case for why it is irrational to believe that Jesus did not exist if you accept that all those other folks did exist. There is every bit as much, if not more evidence, for the existence of Jesus than there is for any of those other historical figures.

As a point of personal curiosity, I could ask why it is so important to you that Jesus not exist? It would never occur to me to try to disprove or argue against the existence of any of those other historical characters. Have you questioned any of them or attempted to dismiss them as you have Jesus? If evidence putting the historical record into question was presented, I would find it interesting, but I see no reason to go looking for such evidence. Why is it so necessary to some here to disprove Jesus?

II do not know that a cult leader by the name of Jesus exist or not however I am not going to allow claims that there is solid proof of his existed as a real man to go unchallenged.

The supernatural nonsense that had been link to the name had done great harm to the rational development of the human race for the last two thousands years and it is at least a thousand years past time for us to stop being so silly.

Second I am sure that the priests of Zeus talk to him daily and other believers did also.

And a large fraction of the figures in history dating far before the so call Jesus period have more proof then of their real existed then the Jesus figure and the one example you gave of Alexandra have a mountain of evidence.