8
   

Was Jesus a Historical Figure?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 03:41 am
You might want to cut back on the coffee, Kenson, old thing . . . you're losing it. No need to shout or to fling wild accusations around.
Kenson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 04:40 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

You might want to cut back on the coffee, Kenson, old thing . . . you're losing it. No need to shout or to fling wild accusations around.


Okay,ooookay, If it is an old one, please, give me some explanation about the matter. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 05:15 am
@Setanta,
I to had link more then once to that fact that her evidence had large holes in it however good Christains need to lie for Christ time after time as I said before.

I assume that she is of the opinion that people will not read te whole thread or whatever is her thinking.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 05:28 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre here is a repeat of a posting of mine that you had not address. Once more if you lie long enough and loud enough you seem that to think you can somehow win. And of course this is hardly the only posting that had pointed out that your proof is somewhat lacking to say the least.

Lying for Jesus.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus

The mother church and been proven in later times to had forge any number of documents and there is more then some question concerning Tacitus writings having been improve upon after the fact.

I did a fast check and came up with the following.

The surviving copies of Tacitus' works derive from two principle manuscripts, known as the Medicean manuscripts, which are held in the Laurentian Library, and written in Latin. It is the second Medicean manuscript which is the oldest surviving copy of the passage describing Christians. In this manuscript, the first 'i' of the Christianos is quite distinct in appearance from the second, looking somewhat smudged, and lacking the long tail of the second 'i'; additionally, there is a large gap between the first 'i' and the subsequent long s. Georg Andresen was one of the first to comment on the appearance of the first 'i' and subsequent gap, suggesting in 1902 that the text had been altered, and an 'e' had originally been in the text, rather than this 'i'[18].

In 1950, at Harald Fuchs request, Dr. Teresa Lodi, the director of the Laurentian Library, examined the features of this item of the manuscript; she concluded that there are still signs of an 'e' being erased, by removal of the upper and lower horizontal portions, and distortion of the remainder into an 'i'.[19] In 2008, Dr. Ida Giovanna Rao, the new head of the Laurentian Library's manuscript office, repeated Lodi's study, and concluded that it is likely that the 'i' is a correction of some earlier character (i.e. an e), the change being made an extremely subtle one. Later the same year, it was discovered that under ultraviolet light, an 'e' is clearly visible in the space, meaning that the passage must originally have referred to chrestianos, a Latin word which could be interpreted as the good, after the Greek word χρηστός (chrestos), meaning 'good, useful'. "I believe that in our passage of Tacitus the original reading Chrestianos is the true one" says Professor Robert Renehan, stating that it was "natural for a Roman to interpret the words [Christus and Christianus] as the similarly-sounding χρηστός".[20] The word Christian/s is in Codex Sinaiticus (in which Christ is abbriviated - see nomina sacra) spelled Chrestian/s in the three places the word is used. Also in Minuscule 81 this spelling is used in Acts of the Apostles 11:26.[21]
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 07:38 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

You seem not to be Christian--or at least I am unaware that you have professed a Christian faith--but you seem not the least bit threatened by the idea that a man called Jesus once lived and many believe that he was divine. Nor do you attempt to discredit what evidence there is for his existence. That, to me, is the reasonable view. I think those secure in their own beliefs are not threatened or insulted by the understanding or beliefs of others.



Possibly there is a bit of short sightedness in the question being asked, with Christians in mind. Having been raised in the Jewish faith, I think of Jesus as a wise Rabbi that his followers evolved into a separate religion. Why would I think a Rabbi did not exist, just because his followers were successful enough to develop a world-wide faith that might irritate atheists or others?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 08:32 am
@Foofie,
And why would you think someone exist when the proof of it seem both small and show signs of being tamper with at some point down stream in time?
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 09:03 am
Perhaps we should ask if it's even relevant if Jesus was a real historic figure or if the story itself is more important.

saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 09:14 am
@rosborne979,
It is amazing that a person /historical or not/ who lived about 30 years as an unkown person and then during about 2 years of preaching within a radius of 50miles (correct Sentanta ?) has been influencing the lifes of billions over the centuries - whatever we like it or not.
Few historical persons have been able to accomplish the same in such short period of their lifes -
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 09:18 am
@saab,
No, it's not amazing because he probably didn't exist and the entire legend is built on prior myths that existed for hundreds or thousands of years earlier. What's amazing is that you can't see that.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 09:51 am
@rosborne979,
Whatever the legend is built upon old myth which have existed for hundreds of years still the story is told as if it all happened to one person.
Usually fairytales are told a bit different from country to country even area to area just like legends are told differently. One is the legend about St. Lucia.
In this case the legend/myth/story is told the same way according to the bible.
I did not say I could not see that. I said It is amazing that a person /historical or not/......
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 10:17 am
@saab,
This story had been smooth out over a thousand years or more and any group that created stories not in agreement with the main line had a habit of being put to the sword.

There is nothing I see amazing about it when the power of the Rome Empire was at the command of this cult and this was before the printing press so there was not all that many copies of non-conforming text to be destroy.

Even so, stories that do not agree with the main Christian cult have become known of late.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 11:19 am
@BillRM,
If I am not wrong there are over 30 000 Christian denomintions in the world.
They are agreeing more or less on the Bible, some have changed it quite a bit - still Jesus is the main personality for them.
This cannot be changed no matter if Jesus is a historical person/a legend/a myth/ or several myths put together over the centuries.
Not long ago the sermons in the churches was mostly about God and we prayed to God. Things have changed and now there is a lot of "Jesus people", you are supposed to pray to Jesus, mostly amongst protestants. RC are much less "Jesus people". Not so long ago I remember somebody making a lot of PR for the Holy Ghost. Now the same person is a "Jesus person".
The Trinity does not seem to be not very important in certain churches anymore.
Please do not misunderstand me now and think I am trying to tell you what to believe or not. I just mentioned this to in some way confirm what you said about changes within in church. It goes on even today. So far non ends up under the sword - at least not amongst the Christians.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 12:02 pm
@saab,
The current culture of the Western world does not allow people to be put to the sword over religion matters however this is a situation only for the last few centuries at best.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 02:53 pm
@rosborne979,
Definitely, this is a case of something which appears in history all the time. The truth, whether known or not, is meaningless in the face of what people choose to believe. That's why, when i've said, as i've done repeatedly, that i don't know, i add that i also don't care.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 05:07 pm
@Setanta,
I care neither if a man name Jesus was a living being however I do care how the good Christians love to lied for Jesus.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 06:15 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

And why would you think someone exist when the proof of it seem both small and show signs of being tamper with at some point down stream in time?

Since his first followers, being Jews, already had a fairly old religion that worked fairly well for Hebrews. Why should they have reinvented the wheel by using a fictional character? Does not make sense to me.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 06:34 pm
@Foofie,
Who know? Jesus could have been a compound of a number of cult leaders at the time.

Short of a time machine we will never know nor is it all that important one way or another.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 07:00 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Short of a time machine we will never know nor is it all that important one way or another.


No. It could be quite important in a few hundred years, since Islam might then have no competition to be the one religion in Europe and other countries. Like the moral of the fable in King Midas' Touch, be careful for what one wishes; one may get it.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 07:26 pm
@Foofie,
What does the possible growth of the Muslin faith have to do with the question of Jesus being a real man or not?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 09:08 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

What does the possible growth of the Muslin faith have to do with the question of Jesus being a real man or not?


If enough people started believing that Jesus never existed, Christianity could suffer a collapse, and as the saying goes, nature abhors a vacuum.
 

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