Guns: how much longer will it take ....

So is your ultimate goal is to eliminate all cars too?

And you're first step is already done. We have already required registration and made many types of guns/weapons illegal. Let's stop there.

And that has already happened.
It is illegal to own a fully automatic weapon.
If you own a handgun it must be registered.
Most "assault" weapons are illegal.
Certain types of ammunition is illegal.

So, your first step has already happened.
But the only people that obey those rules and laws are the people that are already law-abiding citizens.
The criminals already ignore the gun laws,so how is making more laws going to solve anything?

"I care more about my right to own guns than I do about the life that is lost because of guns."

It seems you're saying it's OK by you that 24 innocent people died in Nth Carolina & NY this weekend (plus the rest who've died in similar circumstances in the past, & those who will in the future) ... so long as you (& anyone else, too, I guess) can maintain your rights to own guns. Yes, that shocks me. Your priorities don't make any sense to me.

To be honest, I haven't run a rigorous statistic on the frequency of mass shootings. And it is probably true that there aren't nearly as many mass shootings in Germany as in America. On the other hand, there aren't nearly as many Germans in Germany as there are Americans in America, either. Since America's population is 3-4 times larger than Germany's, 3-4 times more mass shooters, and hence 3-4 times more mass shootings, would be par for the course. (15 times more in the case of Australia.) Once you account for population size, it isn't clear at all that Americans are doing worse under their laws than Australia and Germany are doing under theirs.

First off, I don't agree with your assumption that if there were no guns that 24 more people would have lived (as opposed to being murdered some other way).

Second off, I am not OK with any murder.

Third off, yes, the actual human cost of allowing our current level of gun ownership is acceptable to me. In much the same way that the human cost of automobile ownership is acceptable to you. Don't for a minute think that eliminating or regulating guns would have saved all 24 of these people though. There's a baseline human cost to allowing freedom and not living in a police state. It's not 24 lives saved or 24 lives lost. I think gun ownership PREVENTS a lot of deaths and violent crimes as well, and most importantly to me, it could very well help me prevent my own death. I am MUCH more likely to die driving to work because of someone's carelessness behind the wheel than I am because of someone's carelessness with a gun. I don't see you in a tissy over that!

Handguns needn't be registered in New Mexico and a number of other states. I have several.

I've found it interesting too dlowan. I appreciate the way you broke the analogy down; some people can't make the connection with items that hit so close to home.

Nobody is suggesting banning all guns.

Nobody is suggesting gun control stops all murders.

Perhaps these straw folk may be done away with?

I don't have time right now to look up gun massacres, Thomas, but I'd be surprised if Germany had as bad a record per capita as the US.

Below are per capita murder rates:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita



Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
#6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people
#7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people
#8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people
#9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people
#10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
#11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people
#12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
#13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
#14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
#15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
#16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
#17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
#18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people
#20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
#21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
#22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people
#23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people
#26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
#27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people
#28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people
#29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people
#30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people
#31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people
#32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people
#33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people
#34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people
#35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people
#36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people
#37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people
#38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people
#39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people
#40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
#41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people
#42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people
#43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
#44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
#45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
#47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people
#48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people
#49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
#50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people
#51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
#52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people
#53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people
#54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people
#55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people
#56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
#57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
#58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
#59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
#60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
#61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
#62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people
Weighted average: 0.1 per 1,000 people



Figures from a different source:


http://www.geocities.com/tents444/geohomicide.htm

(Derived from Wikipedia, as it happens)

Country Most recent
Jamaica 46.59
Venezuela[22] 42
South Africa 39.5
Colombia[23][24][25][15] 39.3
El Salvador 31.54
Brazil[26] 27
Guatemala 25.47
Russia 19.80
Ecuador 18.33
Kazakhstan 16.33
Bahamas 15.92
Swaziland 13.63
Mexico 13.04
Mongolia 12.81
Paraguay 12.05
Suriname 10.30
Panama 9.56
Argentina 9.47
Lithuania 9.38
Papua New Guinea 9.06
Latvia 8.58
Thailand 8.47
Zimbabwe 8.44
Belarus 8.31
Kyrgyzstan 8.01
Zambia 7.89
Barbados 7.49
Ukraine 7.42
Seychelles 7.39
Uganda 7.37
Estonia 6.82
Moldova 6.71
Sri Lanka 6.69
Namibia 6.35
Costa Rica 6.23
Georgia 6.22
United States[27] 5.9
Albania 5.68
Uruguay 5.64
Peru 5.54
Philippines 4.31
Côte d'Ivoire 4.07
Palestine 4.04
Yemen 3.98
Turkey 3.83
Nepal 3.42
Bulgaria 3.08
Switzerland 2.94
Iran 2.93
Bolivia 2.82
Finland 2.75
Dominica 2.74
Israel 2.62
Scotland 2.56
Mauritius 2.51
Armenia 2.48
Northern Ireland 2.48
Azerbaijan 2.41
Sweden 2.39
Romania 2.37
European Union[citation needed] 2.37
Malaysia 2.36
Republic of Macedonia 2.31
Slovakia 2.26
Czech Republic 2.22
South Korea 2.18
Hungary 2.09
United Kingdom 2.03
Canada 2.01
Croatia 1.83
Portugal 1.79
Malta 1.75
Chile 1.71
Cyprus 1.70
Poland 1.64
France 1.64
England, Wales 1.62
Bermuda 1.56
Belgium 1.50
Slovenia 1.47
Algeria 1.39
Brunei 1.37
New Zealand 1.29
Australia 1.28
Maldives 1.28
Spain 1.25
Italy 1.23
Tunisia 1.22
Syria 1.14
Indonesia 1.05
Iceland 1.03
Kuwait 0.99
Germany 0.98
Bahrain 0.98
Netherlands[19] 0.97
Saudi Arabia 0.92
Ireland 0.91
Luxembourg 0.90
Austria 0.81
Denmark 0.79
Norway 0.78
Qatar 0.77
Greece 0.76
United Arab Emirates 0.63
Hong Kong 0.63
Oman 0.59
Japan 0.50
Singapore 0.49
Morocco 0.47
Burma 0.19
Pakistan 0.05


Really....Germany doesn't even seem to be trying properly any more!!!

Calamity jane suggested banning all guns, and even amending the constitution of the united states to do so.

It's not a strawman when people are actually using that as the basis of their argument.

Ok...still don't have massacres...but Germany seems to failing to murder enough people by guns, just as it is failing to murder an adequate number of people generally right now, Thomas.

Though your folk appear to be reasonable shots with what guns they have, as they appear to be managing to murder more folk with them than we Ozzians do.

Well, our trains don't run on time either.






Crime Statistics > Murders with firearms (per capita) (most recent) by country


Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 South Africa: 0.719782 per 1,000 people
#2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people
#3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people
#4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
#5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
#6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
#7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
#8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
#9 Uruguay: 0.0245902 per 1,000 people
#10 Lithuania: 0.0230748 per 1,000 people
#11 Slovakia: 0.021543 per 1,000 people
#12 Czech Republic: 0.0207988 per 1,000 people
#13 Estonia: 0.0157539 per 1,000 people
#14 Latvia: 0.0131004 per 1,000 people
#15 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0127139 per 1,000 people
#16 Bulgaria: 0.00845638 per 1,000 people
#17 Portugal: 0.00795003 per 1,000 people
#18 Slovenia: 0.00596718 per 1,000 people
#19 Switzerland: 0.00534117 per 1,000 people
#20 Canada: 0.00502972 per 1,000 people
#21 Germany: 0.00465844 per 1,000 people
#22 Moldova: 0.00448934 per 1,000 people
#23 Hungary: 0.00439692 per 1,000 people
#24 Poland: 0.0043052 per 1,000 people
#25 Ukraine: 0.00368109 per 1,000 people
#26 Ireland: 0.00298805 per 1,000 people
#27 Australia: 0.00293678 per 1,000 people
#28 Denmark: 0.00257732 per 1,000 people
#29 Spain: 0.0024045 per 1,000 people
#30 Azerbaijan: 0.00227503 per 1,000 people
#31 New Zealand: 0.00173482 per 1,000 people
#32 United Kingdom: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people



Oh...hang on....you have more guns percapita (or did in 2007 than we do...so you're maybe not doing better than us at all!


United States 90.0 2007
Yemen 61.0 2007
Switzerland 46.0 2007
Iraq 39.0 2007
Serbia 37.5 2007
France 32.0 2007
Finland[5] 32.0 2008
Canada 31.5 2007
Sweden 31.5 2007
Austria 31.0 2007
Germany 30.0 2007
New Zealand[2] 26.8 1993
Saudi Arabia 26.3 2007
Greece 23.0 2007
Angola 20.5 2007
Thailand 16.0 2007
Australia 15.5 2007
Mexico 15.0 2007
South Africa 13.1 2007
Turkey 13.0 2007
Argentina 12.6 2007
Italy 12.1 2007
Pakistan 12.0 2007
Spain 11.0 2007
Russia 9.0 2007
Ukraine 9.0 2007
Brazil 8.8 2007
Colombia 7.2 2007
United Kingdom 5.6 2007
Iran 5.3 2007
Philippines 4.7 2007
India 4.0 2007
China 3.5 2007
Nigeria 1.0 2007



Actually, we are weenies in this area, really, amongst our economic siblings:

List of Industrial nations (where Gross National Income or GNI per capita exceeds $15,000). Russia is a notable omission from this list.Country Total firearm-related death rate firearm homicide firearm suicide Firearm unintentional Year Sources and notes
Australia 2.94 0.44 2.35 0.11 1994 Krug 1998[1]
Austria 4.56 0.42 4.06 0.05 1994 Krug 1998[1]
Belgium 3.48 0.60 2.56 0.06 1990 Krug 1998[1]
Canada 4.78 0.76 3.72 0.22 1992 Krug 1998[1]
Denmark 2.60 0.23 2.25 0.04 1993 Krug 1998[1]
England/Wales 0.38 0.15 0.2 0.03 2002 Cukier and Sidel (2006)[2]
Finland 6.86 0.86 5.78 0.12 1994 Krug 1998[1]
France 6.35 0.44 5.14 0.11 1994 Krug 1998[1]
Germany 1.57 0.22 1.17 0.04 1994 Krug 1998[1]
Greece 1.50 0.59 0.84 0.04 1994 Krug 1998[1]
Hong Kong 0.19 0.12 0.07 0.00 1993 Krug 1998[1]
Ireland 1.21 0.03 0.94 0.11 1991 Krug 1998[1]
Israel 3.00 0.72 1.84 0.13 1993 Krug 1998[1]
Italy 2.95 1.66 1.11 0.11 1992 Krug 1998[1]
Japan 0.07 0.02 0.04 0.00 1994 Krug 1998[1]
Netherlands 0.70 0.36 0.31 0.01 1994 Krug 1998[1]
New Zealand 2.66 0.17 2.14 0.09 1993 Krug 1998[1]
Norway 4.39 0.30 3.95 0.12 1993 Krug 1998[1]
Portugal 3.72 1.28 1.28 0.21 1994 Krug 1998[1]
Singapore 0.24 0.07 0.17 0.00 1994 Krug 1998[1]
South Korea 0.13 0.04 0.02 0.05 1994 Krug 1998[1]
Spain 0.90 0.21 0.43 0.25 1993 Krug 1998[1]
Sweden 2.36 0.18 2.09 0.03 1993 Krug 1998[1]
Switzerland 6.40 0.58 5.61 0.13 1994 Krug 1998[1]
Taiwan 0.42 0.15 0.12 0.11 1994 Krug 1998[1]
United States 10.0 3.72 7.35 0.59 2004/1999/1993 Kaiser 2004[3] GunCite 2008[4] Krug 1998[1]

But, if you're not OK with any murder, then what exactly do you mean by your statement?:

"I care more about my right to own guns than I do about the life that is lost because of guns."

Those 24 people who died on the weekend were killed by gunmen. Using guns as murder weapons, obviously!

I don't find it particularly useful to speculate on other ways in which those 24 people might have died, instead.

I think surfeit of lampreys is an under researched cause of mass death these days.

I had to Google to comprehend your post, bunny!:

n., pl. -preys.
Any of various primitive elongated freshwater or anadromous fishes of the family Petromyzontidae, characteristically having a jawless sucking mouth with rasping teeth. Also called lamper eel.

Jeez, don't you go putting any fresh killing ideas in some folks' minds!

Still, I've gotta say, lampreys sound a damn sight safer than widespread gun ownership (with potential use!) , any possible day!

Thanks for the statistics, dlowan. When I have time, I'll plot the percentage of gun ownership in each country against its murder rate. It sounds like a good project for the flight from Albuquerque to New York on Tuesday. When we have that plot, we'll get a feeling for any correlation there may be.

Please accept my sincere apologies for us Germans being a nation of inadequate murderers.

Thomas

I'm not Deb, but I would never have believed such a thing for a minute!

Nor about us Australians, for that matter. Heck, criminals are the only folk who use guns (against each other as a rule, thank god!) these days! (Apart from hunters, another story completely. Don't get me started.)

If anyone in suburban Oz professed a need for a gun to feel "safe", they would be considered odd, or paranoid, perhaps. (or maybe involved in some sort of criminal activity? ) Seriously.

No, the problem is that the perpetrators had (all too easy) access to guns!

Are u depending on their laziness to have them unarmed ?

When we were kids, the kids in my neighborhood
MADE guns because it was ez and FUN, a passtime,
even tho we already had many commercially manufactured guns,
rifles, shotguns n pistols.

If one were too lazy to make his own, or too awkward,
he coud buy one from a private gunsmith -- no sales tax.

Repressionists want to disarm citizens, future victims,
saying that guns are sometimes used to facilitate crime.
They fail to understand that the actual weapon is the HUMAN MIND,
whose cleverness has not been controlled nor restrained (even in prison).
This mind expresses itself perseveringly, into the manifestation
of its felt needs or desires, and it has FOREVER to do the job
that it selects (e.g., the art of the gunsmith/gun merchant).

In the 1920s, it was pervasively proven by citizens privately making bathtub gin,
or using Speakeasys (and is proven again now by marijuana users) that Prohibition is futile.

No. Nothing to do with laziness.
No one should need to be armed to feel safe.
Heck, it's not like life in some parts of the US is still like living in the wild west, or something!

At the last massacre in Germany the father had not locked away his gun nor ammunition so the boy could get at it. The father might be prosecuted.
I think it absurd to run around with a handgun. The chances that you meet a criminal are very small and if - you probably don´t have time to pull the trigger anyway. Even if you do you might shoot the wrong person.
It would be less dangerous if these people would carry a securtiy blanket instead or a teddybear - those things also helps against paranoia.

Well, maybe in Heaven,
no one NEEDS to be armed to feel safe.
We still live in the ambit of historic and pre-historic human nature,
which includes predatory violence and that will continue into the foreseeable future.









Addressing:

My own history with that
is that at age 8, I felt insecure at home alone
in a good neighborhood. I doubted that I coud defend my home,
if that ever became necessary (that never became necessary).
I acquired a loaded .38 revolver (which I still have)
and thereafter lived in tranquility & serenity.
I took it everywhere with me, until some years later when I upgraded.

During the following half century, I never needed it for defense,
until the 1990s when I was driving home from my girlfriend 's house
at around 1 AM, when someone in an old car put a bullethole
in my driver 's side window, about 3 inches forward of my position,
that car driving exactly abreast of mine,
until I took out my .44 caliber stainless steel mirror revolver,
whereupon I heard a scream and the old car accelerated,
swifly departing from the scene.

Its better to HAVE a gun and NOT NEED it
than it is to NEED a gun and NOT HAVE it.

If I believed in YOUR philosophy, Olga,
then I 'd have been at the mercy and discretion of the predator.





David