Guns: how much longer will it take ....

@Blickers,

Blickers wrote:

True, but outside of a tiny percentage of investment collectors, everybody who buys a gun intends to shoot something. Guns were invented to be lethal, not so knives, baseball bats or tire irons.

When a gun is used in self defense, lethality is not the desired outcome. Rapid incapacitation is the desired outcome.

If a defender fatally wounds his attacker, but is in turn fatally wounded before his attacker dies, that is not a successful self defense despite the attacker dying.

If a defender wounds his attacker without killing him, and manages to end the attack so that no one is killed, that is a successful self defense despite the attacker surviving.

What is killed when a target shooter strikes a bullseye? I noticed no fatalities in the biathlon during the Winter Olympics a few months ago.

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@revelette1,

revelette1 wrote:

Another tactic gun nuts get into is getting all twisted up with distinctions without a discernable difference.

Actually it was the freedom haters who did that. They are the ones who started using the term "assault weapon" to refer to ordinary rifles that there is no justification for banning. Everyone else is stuck using the terms that they imposed on the debate.

revelette1 wrote:

So what we are talking about is if a gun can shoot multiple rounds without bumping against the trigger finger, then it is an assault weapon.

No. The term you are looking for is "machine gun". "Full auto" will also work.

"Assault weapon" refers to an ordinary rifle with certain harmless cosmetic features that there is no justification for banning.

revelette1 wrote:

But if get a bump stock and you can achieve the same effect, it is still not an assault weapon because if you let off the trigger finger and quit bumping (whatever) it stops firing.
I have a question for people who are so afraid of having their precious guns taken away. Don't you care about people who are getting killed by these guns with these modifications? What is the harm to your rights to ban those modification parts (whatever they may be.)

Bump stocks have already been outlawed. And with the NRA's permission I might add.

1 Reply

@revelette1,

revelette1 wrote:

coldjoint wrote:
revelette1 wrote:
[Not to mention illegal kits which turns a gun into a machine gun; people determined to do it can do it, they might just get caught.
People can also turn fertilizer into bombs. Pressure cookers too. None of those are really illegal until they are used to kill.
A really irrelevant statement. You can use fertilizer to nourish your crops and plants and flowers. What other use are those kits except to turn guns into assault weapons (whatever term is accepted here)? Can you use the kit for another purpose?

Machine gun parts can be lawfully used in the repair of lawfully-owned machine guns.

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@revelette1,

Quote:

Another tactic gun nuts get into is getting all twisted up with distinctions without a discernable difference.

Oralloy has already addressed this, but yeah, it's gun-control nuts who are obsessed with creating distinctions that exist only in their propagandized minds.

Quote:

I have a question for people who are so afraid of having their precious guns taken away. Don't you care about people who are getting killed by these guns with these modifications? What is the harm to your rights to ban those modification parts (whatever they may be.)

I've already said that I'm not opposed to banning bump stocks. So why are you talking as if I've said the opposite?

Also, we're not afraid of having our "precious guns" taken away. But it is apparent that you are afraid of me owning my handgun.

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@oralloy,

Quote:

Bump stocks have already been outlawed. And with the NRA's permission I might add.

I Know Trump said he wants them banned, he wrote an order for the justice department, but I don't think they are banned yet. Something to do with federal law. Congress would have to pass a legislation to get them banned, and it hasn't happened.

Also I had a thought, wonders huh? Anyway, if all bumb stocks do is make the shooting accurate and add a few more rounds, but gun owners who own semi-automatic riffles can still bump the trigger to keep it going off on rounds without bump stocks, then semi-automatic weapons are still dangerous to those who want to commit mass murders.

4 Replies

@revelette1,

Quote:

Congress would have to pass a legislation to get them banned, and it hasn't happened.

Stores have stop selling guns, who is selling bump stocks that you know of?

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@revelette1,

revelette1 wrote:

I Know Trump said he wants them banned, he wrote an order for the justice department, but I don't think they are banned yet. Something to do with federal law.

I think his order is still in the middle of the public comment period, but once it becomes final they will be banned.

revelette1 wrote:

Congress would have to pass a legislation to get them banned, and it hasn't happened.

The legislation was passed in 1934 (requiring all machine guns to be registered) and 1986 (preventing any new machine guns from being registered).

Trump's order will classify bump stocks as machine guns and require them to be covered under existing machine gun laws.

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@revelette1,

revelette1 wrote:

Anyway, if all bump stocks do is make the shooting accurate and add a few more rounds, but gun owners who own semi-automatic riffles can still bump the trigger to keep it going off on rounds without bump stocks, then semi-automatic weapons are still dangerous to those who want to commit mass murders.

How would someone create a bump-stock-like effect without a bump stock?

1 Reply

@revelette1,

Quote:

then semi-automatic weapons are still dangerous to those who want to commit mass murders.

So, do you want to confiscate all semiautomatic weapons? And even if you did, I foresee a future where you will be campaigning to ban the next lethal weapon, until you are down to single-shot rifles. Is that about right?

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@oralloy,

I have been doing this all day in between doing other stuff and from what I understand something about the way you hold the gun and the way your finger stays on the trigger. The bump stocks aides that same effort many gun enthusiast have been doing anyway.

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@Glennn,

Quote Glennn:

Quote:

Re: revelette1 (Post 6650948)
An automatic rife fires about 15 rounds per second. A semiautomatic rife with a bump stock fires about 7.5 rounds per second. So, no, the Las Vegas shooter did not turn his rifles into automatic weapons.

Baloney. The Browning M1919 in use during WWII and Korea, fired between 6.6 and 10 rounds per second, right in the same fire rate as the Las Vegas shooter with his bump stock. The Browning M1919 weighed 31lbs and required at least two men, (usually four), to properly operate it. So the Las Vegas shooter had a firearm capable of firing as fast as the two man machine guns of WWII and Korea.

2 Replies

@Blickers,

Quote:

Baloney. The Browning M1919 in use during WWII and Korea, fired between 6.6 and 10 rounds per second

Boy, if we were having this discussion back in 1940, you'd have made a point. But it's not 1940.

I provided you with a video that proves my point . . . today.

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@Glennn,

And I still have a point today.The machine guns in use in WWII and the Korean War were gin-yoo-wine machine guns which have an automatic firing rate, are recognized as such by everyone, and so the Las Vegas shooter had a gun that had a firing rate equal to it.

Your rebuttal is dismissed.

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@Blickers,

I'm unsure why it matters. As soon as Trump's federal rule is finalized, bump stocks will be classified as machine guns and illegal unless properly registered, with the government refusing to take new registrations.

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@Glennn,

Quote Glenn:

Quote:

So you don't want anyone to have a handgun for personal home protection. That leaves people at a disadvantage if they face a burglar or worse. How do justify that position?

Burglars are not immune to bullets from rifles and shot from shotguns.

Quote Blickers:

Quote:

I would like to see weapons that resemble assault rifles be banned

Quote Glenn:

Quote:

This is silly, as it is based on . . . nothing.

No, it is based on the fact that the semiautomatic assault style weapon like the AR-15 has become the weapon of choice for disturbed young people when they want to go out in a Blaze Of Glory taking as many innocents with them as they can. Therefore, it is imperative that we break up that pattern so the disturbed don't latch onto it.

Quote Glenn:

Quote:

Why have you excluded handguns? Explain your reasoning for allowing rifles and shotguns, but excluding handguns.

Rifles and shotguns cannot be hidden on the person where they come out for barroom and street confrontations. Also, handguns kill many, many more people than rifles and shotguns, cutting out handguns cuts out most of the firearm murder problem right there. I would allow rifles and shotguns for personal protection at home, and because of the fact that in rural America hunting is a tradition handed down from one generation to the next. Hunting rifles are not the reason America has a murder rate four times higher than other advanced Western nations.

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@Blickers,

Blickers wrote:

Burglars are not immune to bullets from rifles and shot from shotguns.

True. But how do you defend yourself when out in public? It's a tad inconvenient to carry a rifle when you're shopping for groceries.

Blickers wrote:

No, it is based on the fact that the semiautomatic assault style weapon like the AR-15 has become the weapon of choice for disturbed young people when they want to go out in a Blaze Of Glory taking as many innocents with them as they can. Therefore, it is imperative that we break up that pattern so the disturbed don't latch onto it.

That isn't true. The weapon of choice in massacres is clearly a handgun.

But even if it had been true that they preferred rifles with a certain cosmetic scheme, them choosing a certain cosmetic scheme wouldn't make their shooting spree any deadlier than if they had used a rifle with a different cosmetic scheme.

Blickers wrote:

Also, handguns kill many, many more people than rifles and shotguns, cutting out handguns cuts out most of the firearm murder problem right there.

Those people would be just as dead if they were killed with some other weapon.

Blickers wrote:

I would allow rifles and shotguns for personal protection at home, and because of the fact that in rural America hunting is a tradition handed down from one generation to the next.

And how do people protect themselves while out in public?

Blickers wrote:

Hunting rifles are not the reason America has a murder rate four times higher than other advanced Western nations.

I doubt there is a basis for saying that any other type of firearm is the reason either.

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@Blickers,

Quote:

Your rebuttal is dismissed.

I wasn't rebutting you. I was correcting your statement concerning the difference in the rate of fire between semiautomatic rifles and automatic rifles. The video I provided showed you the difference. In an attempt to give the impression that you had not been corrected, you dug into the past and found a machine gun from the 1940s whose rate of fire is about half that of today's automatic rifles.

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@Blickers,

Quote:

Burglars are not immune to bullets from rifles and shot from shotguns.

That's not what I asked you. Why do you want me to not have a handgun for personal home protection?

Quote:

No, it is based on the fact that the semiautomatic assault style weapon like the AR-15 has become the weapon of choice for disturbed young people when they want to go out in a Blaze Of Glory taking as many innocents with them as they can.

The AR-15 has been used in only three of all the school shootings since 1984.

The AR-15 is also not the weapon of choice for mass shooters. As evidence of this, I will refer you to the list below. If, after reading it, you still don't understand what it is telling you about the weapon of choice for mass shooters, I have also summed up the conclusion of its details for you.
___________________________________________________________________________________

Las Vegas: Twenty-two semi-automatic rifles (58 killed).
San Francisco UPS shooting: two pistols (3 killed).
Orange County, Florida: pistol (5 killed).
Fort Lauderdale, Florida: pistol (5 killed).
Burlington, Washington: Semi-automatic rifle (5 killed).
Orlando, Florida: Sig Sauer semi-automatic rifle and pistol (49 killed).
San Bernardino, California: Two semi-automatic rifles and two pistols (14 killed.
Colorado Springs, Colorado: Semi-automatic rifle (3 killed).
Umpqua Community College: Five pistols (9 killed.
Chattanooga, Tennessee: Semi-automatic rifle, pistol, and shotgun (5 killed).
Charleston, South Carolina: Pistol (9 killed).
Isla Vista, California: Three pistols and two knives (6 killed).
Fort Hood, Texas: Two pistols (3 killed).
Washington, D.C.: Shotgun and pistol (12 killed).
Santa Monica, California: Semi-automatic rifle and pistol (5 killed).
Newtown, Connecticut: Semi-automatic rifle and pistol (27 killed).
Brookfield, Wisconsin: Pistol (3 killed).
Minneapolis, Minnesota: Pistol (6 killed).
Oak Creek, Wisconsin: Pistol (6 killed).
Aurora, Colorado: Semi-automatic rifle and pistol (12 killed).
Oakland, California: Pistol (7 killed).
Seal Beach, California: Three pistols (8 killed.
Tuscon, Arizona: Pistol (6 killed).
Manchester, Connecticut: Pistol (8 killed).
Huntsville, Alabama: Pistol (3 killed).
Fort Hood, Texas: Pistol (13 killed).
Binghamton, New York: Two pistols (13 killed).
Dekalb, Illinois: One shotgun and three pistols (5 killed).
Omaho, Nebraska: Semi-automatic rifle (8 killed).
Blacksburg, Virginia: Two pistols (32 killed).
Salt Lake City, Utah: One shotgun and one pistol (5 killed).
Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania: One shotgun, one pistol, and one bolt-action rifle (5 killed).
Golita, California: Pistol (6 killed).
Red Lake Indian Reservation, Minnesota: One shotgun and two pistols (9 killed).
Meridian Mississippi: One shotgun and one semi-automatic rifle (5 killed).
Wakefield, Massachusetts: Semi-automatic rifle, shotgun, and pistol (7 killed).
Honolulu, Hawaii: Pistol (7 killed).
Fort Worth, Texas: Two pistols (7 killed).
Atlanta, Georgia: Four pistols and one hammer (9 killed).
Columbine, Colorado: One semi-automatic rifle and one shotgun (13 killed).
Jonesboro, Arkansas: Three semi-automatic rifles (5 killed).
Garden City, New York: Pistol (6 killed).
San Francisco, California: Three pistols (8 killed).
Olivehurst, California: One shotgun and one .22 rifle (4 killed).
Iowa City, Iowa: Pistol (4 killed).
Killeen, Texas: Two pistols (22 killed).
Jacksonville, Florida: One semi-automatic rifle and one pistol (10 killed).
Stockton, California: One semi-automatic rifle and one pistol (5 killed).
Edmon, Oklahoma: Three pistols (14 killed).
San Ysidro, California: One pistol, one semi-automatic rifle, and one shotgun (21 killed).
_______________________________________________________________________________

Of those 50 incidents, 18 involved semiautomatic rifles. Of those 18 incidents, 12 involved shotguns and pistols along with the semiautomatic rifles.

Quote:

Rifles and shotguns cannot be hidden on the person where they come out for barroom and street confrontations.

And when people start using sawed-off shotguns and rifles, what will you propose then?

1 Reply

@Glennn,

So Glenn, do you have kids?

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Quote:

Law enforcement officials said Tuesday at least a dozen of the 23 firearms recovered in Las Vegas were semiautomatic rifles legally modified to fire like automatic weapons, using an alteration known as a bump fire stock.

WP

I would think the law enforcement who were/are working the case would know what they are talking about. Your video could have been made from anywhere and fiddled with for all we know.

2 Replies

Guns: how much longer will it take ....

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