Welcome Sports Haters!

Good evening David.
--------------------
Quote
1951:
Most Respectfully,
I wonder if u will u consider an appeal to your better nature
that u restrain excesses of emotion in furtherance of your point of vu?
--------------------

Right now, I'm holding back on any more emotional responses pending Cyclops' review of the You Tube video links I have posted.

He keeps ignoring all the facts I have presented to him.

Right now, all I want is his honest opinion of the videos concerning the injustice of handicapped children being tortured with electric shocks in some of our nation's boarding school.

Any emotional or unemotional response from me thereof depends on Cyclops' response to the videos.

But I see he continues to ignore my questions to him.

I'm I'm still waiting. He may yet respond.

The night is still young.

Thank u, 1951
That was a good year.
David

I changed my mind about leaving the website for good (at least for now), because three of the long-time members contacted me (by PMs, of course) and urged me to stay on; so, I’m back. Frankly, if someone manages to get me banned because he doesn’t believe that I have the right to express my opinions, I just won’t care. In fact, I would laugh about it. I wouldn’t have to mess with this nonsense anymore. What is so hilarious about this latest unpleasantness is that if Cycloptichorn and kuvasz had just ignored this topic (as they would have, if they TRULY had had a “live and let live“ attitude, which they clearly do NOT have), it would have died, which is what I had expected to happen all along. And if it had died, I wouldn’t have cared at all. Its revival completely surprised me. I started posting again because, in part, I didn’t like the way they bullied chai2 simply because she was not enamored with sports. So, Cyclo (for short) and kuv (for short) have only themselves to blame for the continued life of this thread.

Cyclo sent me a PM, but I managed to avert my eyes to avoid reading it so I could read the PMs I received from other members. And the reason why is not because I’m unwilling to have a dialogue, but is because I don’t care to be personally insulted by an Internet bully who apparently gets a charge attacking people he doesn’t even know. In fact, he owes i_like_1981 an apology; but I don’t expect him to apologize, because he seems to lack common decency and is too full of pride.

I have a tip for Cyclo. Let me tell you how you can get rid of me for good. If you and kuv could persuade Robert to remove the “user ignore” function, then I would leave immediately and never come back, because I’m not a masochist. And I would laugh about it, too. I won’t waste my time allowing someone to subject me to verbal abuse and personal insults without cause (someone who really knows nothing about me), instead of being civil and man enough to respond with convincing arguments. By the way, if you or kuv ever attempt to harass me by means of proxy, I’ll just simply “ignore” your proxy as well; so, don’t even try. I’ll “ignore” half the members of this website’s forum, if that’s what it takes.

On about the second or third page of this topic (if I remember correctly), Cyclo called me a whiner. Now, let me see … A whiner is someone who constantly complains about something that happened or is happening to him. Well, guess what, folks. In the particular post of mine that he was responding to, I had not spoken about anything that had happened to me. I was speaking about experiences of OTHER PEOPLE, including my wife. So, his attempt to use the word “whiner” as an insult failed because I wasn’t talking about myself. In fact, most of what I’ve said in this topic has been about other people’s experiences. The reason I’ve spoken about my childhood P.E. experience is to provide EVIDENCE that the traditional sports-centered P.E. of the “Baby Boom” generation was a torment for nonathletic boys, especially those who were physically weak or were overweight (not that Cyclo particularly cares). What I objected to was the utter hypocrisy (in the name of promoting physical fitness, which was a complete lie) of forcing nonathletic students to take P.E. classes that did NOT help them to get into shape at all, but only taught them to fear coaches and athlete classmates (the sort of people Cyclo admires).

Before I continue, unless I’m mistaken, I get the impression from comments in other recent posts that Cyclo has been saying that people who were sexually victimized when they were children should just “get over it.” I’m struck by Cyclo’s total ignorance and callousness on this sensitive subject. (Another strike against you, buddy. You’re the gift that keeps on giving.) I can’t believe this. Victims of childhood sexual abuse need professional help, preferably while they are still young. (For your information, buddy, treatment was not provided to Fat Man 1951; so, don’t be so self-righteously smug in your estimation of him. I can’t believe how truly pathetic you really are.) I have personally witnessed just how DEVASTATING childhood sexual abuse is in the lives of its victims. Decades ago my best friend married a young woman whose maternal grandfather had raped her repeatedly when she was a very young girl, starting when she was about four or five years old. I didn‘t find out about her victimization until their marriage was beginning to fall apart. (Have you ever experienced the feeling of horror from learning that someone you had known and respected for years had been victimized in such a particularly horrible way?) They had a baby girl. When their daughter had reached the age at which her mother had been when her grandfather started raping her, my friend’s wife started experiencing flashbacks. She would have attacks at night when she would collapse to the floor, clawing at the air with her curled fingers. Her young daughter frequently witnessed these flashbacks. And the mother’s personality began to change. I had known her to be a faithful Christian. But since she “felt dirty,” she started committing adultery with men who were strangers to her. She went through a process of heartbreaking mental deterioration, and they eventually got a divorce (which devastated their young daughter, of course). And because of reasons which he never told me, I eventually lost my best friend when he turned against me. I suppose Cyclo would say that my former friend’s ex-wife should have “pulled herself up by her own bootstraps.” Words fail me …

I’ll have a lot more to say later. I’ve only just begun.

“Mental Imbalances,” my rear.

Even if true, and because I don't care I won't bother to look, that has no bearing on my comment. Regardless of who "started it" the insults do your argument no favors.



So you think the appropriate response is to join the site just to put him down for not hating sports?



Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they don't want you to say what you want to say. You should be able to better abide disagreement than this.



Again, whether or not that is true has no bearing on the effect your own inability to remain civil has on your arguments.



This isn't the type of website where exchanges of this level of intelligence will hold much sway. Maybe using repetition, insults, capital letters and the like are powerful instruments on other forums but here it will likely undermine any actual arguments you get around to. Just saying.

The "facts" you present do not support the conclusions that are being discussed. That some horrible things happened at the hands of some sports participants simply does nothing to reasonably indict sports.

Do you hate all men because those who harmed you were predominantly male? If it were a black person who picked on you would you hate all black people?

The "fact" that some horrible incident happened simply doesn't substantiate the conclusion that sports should be hated. Hell if you want to hate sports have at it. It's a matter of personal taste, not facts.

I should also note that I have as much a qualm with the argument that I believe Cyclo proposed that those who do not appreciate sports are missing out on a true beauty of life. Not everyone is the same, and to someone who doesn't appreciate sports this might sound like a gay person telling a straight person how much they are missing out on.

I get that the US and its sports-centric schools can be annoying to people who don't like sports, but do you really think that this is some universal truth, and that everyone should feel the same way?

And before you go off on me like you did on Cyclo, calling me a jock and trying to make fun of my occupation (I am an underwater basket weaver, have at it) I personally don't watch sports unless it happens to be on where I am. I just don't have the time for it and have been out of touch with it for almost a decade now.

But I really did enjoy sports as a spectator back when I watched it rabidly, and on the occasions when I get out and get some exercise sports is pretty much all I find interesting enough to do. I am not a gym rat, and exercise for the sake of it is something I am not into. But on the rare (these days) occasion when I get out and play some sports it really makes me feel good.

Now I wouldn't begrudge you for not feeling the same way. I can certainly see the arguments from those who find all the passion about sports to be much ado about nothing, or even something repulsive.

But what this all boils down to is taste. And taste is like ass, everyone has their own. Some people don't get TV, they think it's for idiots. Some people don't get video games, some people don't get dancing, some people don't get sex (as in they don't like it).

Different strokes for different folks man! Life would be pretty boring if we all had exactly the same taste.



What if his honest opinion is that that really sucks but that it doesn't support the conclusion that sports are to be hated?



This is an asynchronous medium of communication, you aren't supposed to sit there and wait for a response like you would on the phone, in a chat room or the like. You might want to just be more patient about it because this comes across as an inordinate emotional attachment to this discussion.

Yes, he is a bully.

and...



and from earlier..



We don't all have to agree you know. Just because some here hate sports and some here don't doesn't mean that any particular side isn't "welcome" or that the topic should be deleted.




So have I, so have a lot of us. But this doesn't make our opinions right when we mention them. Yes, I get that abuse from childhood may seem trivialized depending on the reactions they receive when they are disclosed, but I wish you guys would consider that you might be misdirecting your anger. It wasn't all jocks, it wasn't Cyclo (who I think is more of a nerd than a jock myself..) and perhaps you might consider that your experience, though painful, doesn't mean that sports itself is to blame.

I didn't go to school much (only part of 7th and then 9th grade) and quite frankly the American school experience was pretty horrific all around. I actually found refuge myself in P.E. I was poor as hell in school, only one pair of shoes from Payless, and like two pants and two shirts. I got mocked for not being able to afford to cut my hair, always wearing the same things, and I had a pretty hard time. I had to steal my lunch every day to eat, and eventually dropped out of school because being homeless and studying was too hard.

I was constantly fighting in school, couldn't fit in well (I grew up in a cult abroad and was struggling to learn the ropes) and I actually just started cutting class and spending the whole day in P.E. Nobody cared about my clothes, and on days I couldn't take the torment in school I would just hit the basketball courts and do P.E. all day.

And I'm sharing this with you because I want you to consider that it isn't sports that hurt you. It was assholes. In other countries I've lived in, the school experience isn't nearly as horrific as it can be in America. And they play sports too.

In many ways America has a very competitive, aggressive and mean-spirited culture. These traits in those people may be more appropriate to direct your ire at than those who practice or enjoy sports.

Maybe your P.E. experience had a lot of room for improvement. Even in my short P.E. experience I saw some kids having a real tough time that I'd stand up for. But the qualm I had wasn't about sports in general, or those who do enjoy them. The specific mistreatment is what I objected to.

Maybe a completely different example would help: dancing. I hate singing and dancing, it's just not my thing, I have no interest or ability there. But I was forced to dance and sing as a kid (sometimes even in public) and I was mortified. I've ran off stages, hid, and gone though sheer terror (for me then) over being forced to perform. But what I object to was being forced to endure such embarrassment when it was clearly embarrassing to me. Singing and dancing aren't the problem it was the application of it in my case that was wrong.

I still think dancing is stupid, and feel like a retard if I try it but I get how others can find it enjoyable or even exhilarating. My experience had a lot more to do with the pain of public humiliation than dancing.

Yours may be the same in sports, perhaps your P.E. class was wrong-headed, but that doesn't make all sports bad. If you are abused with a hammer blame the abuser, not all hammers.

"Different strokes for different folks man! Life would be pretty boring if we all had exactly the same taste."

Tell that to kuvasz and Cycloptichorn.

I did. I've said that I disagree with Cycoptichorn's comments to the effect that those who don't enjoy sports are missing out on one of life's beauties.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As a heterosexual I'm sure he doesn't feel like he's missing out on all the pleasures of homosexual sex that much so he should be able to understand that not everyone will like sports, even if they try.

I also disagree with his own insults on this thread, but I've long exhausted my ability to influence him there (I've criticized it on many occasions and now he thinks it's just a grudge or something and ignores it).

But like I said to another participant, what Cyclo says reflects on him and his arguments and pointing at it doesn't make anyone else's arguments any better.

No!

Something is wrong here in the USA. Something has gone terrible wrong.

The jocks in the USA make up an over-privileged class of people who have done nothing worth while to earn those extra privileges.

All they do is chase balls.

My mother taught me how to read and write before I started school and by the time I was only in the 3rd grade I was already reading at the adult level.

When I was 13 years old I scored 150 points on a standard IQ test.

I loved science and art. Astronomy was my favorite subject.

I was lousy at sports, because at the age of 4 years, I was in a car accident, My left knee was injured, so as a kid in school, I was unable to run, and could only walk with a limp because my knees hurt so much.

One day, I got suspended from school, because I failed to climb a rope in a gymnasium. Never mind that I was making high grades in all of my academic subjects, that was no good, I had to be good in PE, so I got suspended just simply because I was unable to climb the rope.

I was physically handicapped because of my crippled up left knee, and I was punished for it.

Now it has gotten worse. Now, kids with handicaps are put in boarding schools where they are administered electric shocks.

I HATE ALL ATHLETES!

They are the over privileged New Royalty, the New Royal Class of tyrants that should be overthrown.

Athletes get to eat T-bone and sirloin stakes.

Handicapped kids in boarding schools only get mashed potatoes sprinkled with dried liver powder.

Athletes get to have a nice cold beer and any thing they like to quench their thirst.

Handicapped kids in boarding schools are forced to drink hot Tabasco sauce and eat Jalapeno peppers washed down with vinegar.

Athletes can have sex with any one they choose, and we must give them our sisters and daughters, even our wives and our mothers. Our women belong to them!

Handicapped kids in boarding schools are not allowed to associate with one another and if they try to befriend other kids in their schools, the are given more electric shocks! They're not allowed to have friends.

Athletes can rape our women and go unpunished!

Handicapped kids in boarding schools in schools are warned that if they behave in some inappropriate way, and if the kids promises that they will avoid committing the misbehavior they are still administered electric shocks to make the kids misbehave, and then, when the kids misbehave, they are given even more electric shocks.

So, Handicapped kids in boarding schools are not only punished with electric shocks for disobedience, but they are still given electric shocks if they obey.

If they disobey they are punished, and if they obey they are still punished.

But jocks are free to beat up on the other students in our high schools, and students who defend themselves from the beatings are punished instead.

NO MORE OF THIS BULLSHIT! THIS HAS TO STOP!

WE NEED A REVOLUTION IN THE USA!

THE TYRANTS MUST BE OVERTHROWN AND BROUGHT DOWN LOW!

THE TYRANTS MUST BE EXECUTED!

THE BALANCE MUST BE RESTORED!

I believe in balance! I believe in the thermodynamic principles that operate in the cosmos. It called Cosmic Book Keeping! Everything is in balance. Energy and matter is not created from nothing and is not destroyed. Matter may be converted into energy, or energy back into matter, but neither can be created or destroyed, but only changed in form.

Cosmic Book Keeping!

The books must balance.

But our society is out of balance.

Good has been punished, and evil has been rewarded.

Time to balance the books!

We need to erect a tall guillotine in Washington DC, and round up the New Royalty, the over-privileged athletic elite, execute them!!!

CHOP! CHOP!

It's what I call, restoring the balance.

Cosmic Book Keeping!

I don't believe our views are reconcilable. I just can't subscribe to such hyperbolic extremism.

In addition to participation in competitive athletics,
dancing was another activity in school that I refused.

Thay both offended my sense of logic.

You realize you are raving, of course.

To say that a dictatorship must be overthrown is not extremism!

And that's what we have now in the USA!

We are living under a dictatorship!

Me, and extremist???

Don't look at me!

Look at the extremists who are running the boarding schools for handicapped children!

To say that tyrants must be overthrown and executed is not extremism!

It is right and it's true justice!

The Constitution says we have a right to overthrow an unjust government.

But they don't teach The Constitution in high schools anymore!

Now, they only teach how to fold paper footballs!

1951:
When I was in school, I refused to participate in competitive athletics;
except once, when I was 8 years old, recently arrived in Arizona.

Some adult coaxed n cajoled me into joining a baseball game
in which my class was engaged. Against my better judgment,
I acquiesced. I did not know the rules. I did not know which guys
were on which team. I was inundated with conflicting advice
on what to do as I held the bat. In my ignorance, I fell into error.

My mistakes brought upon me the fiercely obscene rage
of my fellow students on my team . . . until I began to pound
upon their countenances (seriatim) causing some of them to
take up supine positions on the baseball field; the others fled.

The students on the other team (the other half of my class)
were laffing hysterically. I have never been tempted into
another ballgame. That was enuf. I also noticed that facial
pounding on the other students has a way of quieting them down.
There was no further trouble. (Actually, thay later admired my initiative.)

In one way of looking at it: I won the game.

1951:
I see no value in competitive ballgames; I coud not POSSIBLY
have less interest than I do in which group of strangers prevails
over another group of strangers in sports. I don't need to spy
on them; its none of my business. (Thay don 't spy on me.)

I am very sympathetic to your plight in your early years.
I 'd have been inclined to defend & befriend u, if I 'd been there then.

HOWEVER, I just can 't take these super-aggressive declarations of yours.

I have no right to tell anyone what to do.
I have no right to censor anyone, but I have a right to defend
my sense of tranquility, peace, serenity and equanimity.

U will do what u want, but If u don 't calm down in the Spirit of the Season
and stop hurling all these insults around, as an act of self-defense,
I will put u on Ignore. That 's no threat; I 'm just telling u what will happen.
I am unwilling to look at all that yelling and screaming.
No offense. I wish u the best of joy, beauty, great wealth, good luck, and blissful tranquility.





David

Amen, Brother David.

Thank you for being civil. I actually do not have a belligerent attitude, but I will stick up for other people who are being bullied. This may surprise you, but I actually don’t enjoy writing posts on this and related subjects. I feel resentment at the injustice and stupidity. I almost wish I were doing something else, but I must stick up for the principles I believe.

I’m frustrated because I’m not understood. When someone says, “I don’t like sports,” that actually is a vague expression that needs to be clarified for the sake of meaning. What exactly do people mean when they use the word “sports”? That depends on the individual. And people who say they don’t like sports have different reasons.

I think that people on the two opposing sides in this thread sometimes speak at cross purposes to each other. The sports fans have their attention focused on the action that takes place on the playing field during a game; the sports CRITICS (not haters), such as myself, are concerned with what happens OFF the playing field when the game is over.

Playing a game with a ball is a neutral activity. In that sense I am not anti-sports. What I do have a problem with is the CULTURE that is associated with actually only a FEW sports at the most. First of all, let me say that I respect athletic achievement. As someone who has worked out at a health club, I appreciate the effort and dedication that is necessary to excel in a sport. But dedication is also necessary to excel academically. Learning a science such as physics is easy? Also, respect is a two-way street.

You say that I blame sports for bullying. That is NOT my view. Each sport has its own culture; and by that, I mean the culture that is associated with or promotes a particular sport. Regarding bullying in the schools: yes, I recognize that many bullies are not athletes and some are even girls. I’m referring now, though, to those bullies who are “student athletes.” I think if some kind of field research were done, the results would show that some sports hardly contribute any bullies at all. What I mean by that is not that sports cause the bullying, but that the CULTURE of certain sports encourages bullying.

(Please notice here that I do make this very vital distinction. Again, a particular athletic activity by itself is morally neutral. That sport’s culture, however, may reinforce attitudes that are wrongheaded or even immoral; and it’s important to note that culture is not static, that it can be changed. In other words, the culture is NOT inherent to the sport.)

So, to get back to what I was saying, I think field research would indicate that some sports do not contribute bullies. Swimmers do not have a bully image, do they? The Olympic swimmer Michael Phelps was an ATHLETE who was subjected to bullying in school for (among other “reasons”) not being in a “right” sport. Are golfers known for arrogance and bullying? How about track and field athletes? I don’t have any negative views of athletes who participate in gymnastics. Even Fat Man 1951 likes baseball players.

I also need to point out that there has been a component of anti-intellectualism in American culture since Colonial times, starting with Washington Irving’s “Legend of Sleepy Hollow”; hence, the antagonism that is sometimes directed against nerds. Intellectual men have been depicted as ineffectual wimps, despite the fact that there have been many intellectual men of great courage. Ever hear of Raoul Wallenburg, who saved the lives of thousands of Hungarian Jews from the German Nazis and their Hungarian fascist accomplices? You should do some research about him. He truly was one of the greatest heroes of World War II, and (ironically enough) he wasn’t even a soldier. He was an extremely intelligent, highly educated man who, to use the words of his half-sister, “detested competitive team sports.” Would Cyclo say that Wallenburg was missing out on one of life’s beauties? Words fail me …

I have no problem with sports. I have a problem with the CULTURE that is associated with just a few sports (with football as the greatest offender, in my opinion). When I was growing up, any boy who had no interest in sports (such as myself) was considered to be a “sissy” and was suspected of having homosexual tendencies. Today boys who have no interest in sports are called wimps and fags. Do you realize how difficult it is for a nonathletic boy to grow up with these constant messages in this sports-saturated culture? Again, that is of no concern to kuvasz and Cyclo. The “dumb jock” stereotype is terrible, but the negative stereotype of nonathletic boys as “fags” is no big deal.

A wimp is a moral coward. Wimps come in all sizes and shapes. My former best friend played basketball in high school and continued playing basketball for recreation. He eventually became a moral coward and even talks like a stereotypical wimp today. But the sports culture says that only nonathletic boys become wimps. (Wallenburg was a wimp?)

Homosexual men have participated in sports ever since they were invented. There have even been homosexual football players. Earlier in this thread I was objecting to the negative stereotyping of nonathletic boys. Then kuvasz responded as if I had been talking about nothing more than homosexual rights. While interesting, his comment to me had absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. He really doesn’t LISTEN to people whose point of view is even slightly different from his own. He just disregards them as not being worthy of an audience. He probably thinks I’m gay.

This culture of machismo has led to a form of intolerance and arrogance. A childhood friend of mine who played football in high school (and is still a rabid football fan) earlier this year told me that most of his teammates looked down on their nonathletic classmates (sissies, I guess). At a small website where I serve as a moderator (small potatoes), a high-school football player said that most of his teammates had the same attitude. This is the type of attitude that leads to bullying.

Let me depict a scenario that I’m convinced is all too common on American high-school campuses today. A scrawny teenage boy is bullied at his high school by several members of the football team. What really irks me about some football fans is that they say this boy should attend the school’s football games and root for his tormentors on the playing field. Does that make any sense? Cyclo would say this boy has a bad attitude. One reason I’m so exasperated with Cyclo is because as a former nerd he seems to be of the inclination to tell nerds in high school who are being bullied that they should SHUT UP because the jocks are more important than they are. So, in that sense Fat Man 1951 is right when he calls him a traitor.

You say that sports are not to blame for individual athletes bullying nonathletes, and in a sense you are right. But to say that they are just jerks who happen to be athletes is an INSUFFICIENT view. It’s like saying that under Jim Crow, black Americans were subjected to mistreatment by only those whites who were bad people. This is an insufficient view. There were “good” whites who mistreated blacks. The issue was not whether some whites were good or bad; the issue was IDEOLOGY, which happened to be racism. I’m not saying that the bullying of nonathletic boys by athlete classmates is the moral equivalent of Jim Crow. I’m saying that a particular culture associated with certain sports encourages the bullying. But I realize that there are decent football players and coaches who rise above this negative culture. I have several friends who played football in high school but never bullied other students at their schools. But I suspect that the majority of high-school football coaches are not opposed to their players bullying other students at their schools.

I’ve gone to the trouble to write this long post to show that we are not the “pathetic” people that Cyclo and kuvasz (as well as many others) would have you believe. I have a lot more to say, but I’ve said enough for now.

Fat Man 1951, Cyclops may have put you on his "Ignored Users" list. I reckon he's done that with me already as he knows I'm not going to admit my views are "wrong". (I see the habit of putting birth years in our usernames is becoming popular now!) So I'm not sure he'll get back to us.

Well, I don't mind him putting me on his ignore list. That's his choice. But to come onto a sports haters thread and call the people "******* pathetic" is well out of line! As a person who claims to have been bullied in the past, he should understand our feelings! Or perhaps he has forgotten how it feels? Well, I'm guessing he's older than me judging by his beautiful wife and loving family - I'm only 28. How can I be sure that at my age, he was not seething about it too? You can never know! Keep in mind we're all just names on a screen to each other here!

Best regards,
i_like_1981

I have half a mind to quit this. It's beginning to seem like a waste of time. I feel like I'm tilting at windmills. Just a bunch of anger on both sides. Nothing positive is gained. I know which side I'm on and whom I will defend, but it seems like all we're doing is just spinning our wheels and going nowhere. I'm not telling anyone to stop talking on either side, but I feel like I'm wasting my energy just being mad for no useful purpose. No minds on either side will ever change. So what's the point? Don't know what I'll eventually decide to do about this thread. Don't bare anyone ill will. Never did. Just didn't like someone treated badly over something as inconsequential as sports.