Welcome Sports Haters!

How can sports be more important than life and death?

Oh, this is silly. You and I are probably not even talking about the same thing. If you'll read the intial hostile exchange between Cycloptichorn and i_like_1981, you'll find out what I'm talking about. Good grief. I don't even know exactly what point YOU'RE trying to make. All rather goofballish. :-) Not you. Just all this unpleasantness.

Just pointing out how these matters are trivial but observing how much hatred people put into their beliefs..

On the contrary; I never ignore you and I don't believe that you carry a grudge at all. I just have a fundamentally different view of my participation on A2K then you do. Please understand that my intention is not to make things more difficult than possible for you, but to instead utilize this medium to it's fullest extent; an area where self-censorship is not necessary the same way it is in other parts of life.

Cycloptichorn

wm meet Francis. He likes to tweak the serious Americans with his Gallic humour. I thought his quip was a gentle jibe at the hysteria on this thread. Don't you agree?

I never put any of you or anyone on ignore, ever. I don't believe in automatically ignoring people. However, I don't respond unless people have something interesting to say, and as I pointed out earlier, this conversation is rather boring if you guys can't add anything new worth discussing.



But it's not out of line for you to insult me, and other sports lovers and players?



But you should not try and understand the feelings of others?



No, I have forgotten nothing of how it feels to be bullied by others.



I am but a few years older than you, and have been lucky to achieve good things in my life through hard work. You should understand that - as I said earlier - the resentment and hate that is displayed towards those who are different then yourself equates yourself with those who displayed such attitudes towards you. Claiming that you have the right to be a jerk just because others were a jerk towards you is fallacious.

You are an individual; you have differences than those around you. You don't appreciate being lumped in together with others. Why do you expect that other people will?

I am not trying to start an argument with you; I don't care if you like sports or not. It doesn't affect me at all, couldn't affect me. So please take this in the spirit that it is offered: let go of the things in your past that bothered you. Learn to laugh at the failings in other people (at least in your mind) and forgive them. You will be happier and it will remove the ability of others to make you angry or upset through their behavior.

Imagine a board out there, with a bunch of ex-high school jocks sitting around talking about how pissed they are, that ten years later, it's former nerds and non-jocks such as you and myself who have the good jobs and the money and the success in life, while their group got screwed over. Sort of like the guys who come to the sportssuck board and claim that anyone who doesn't like sports is stupid or weak or a fag. I'm sure you would tell them that their anger is misplaced and that they have themselves to look to, for how their lives are today. Surely you can see the similarities between your behavior and theirs! Don't be like that; be better than them.

Cycloptichorn

Well, yes, I do.

I wish you had spoken in these terms before. This is so much better. You're actually SOUNDING more compassionate and understanding. I KNEW board messaging is a lousy way to communicate. None of us gets a full picture of the other.

I came on this thread hoping for a bit of fun and some friendly banter with those ladies who consider a bunch of fatties chasing a ball around a field, which they haven't even the sense to make round, as if their lives depended upon it, to be not what men are made for at all. That such things are a throwback to the beast in us and thus lack that cultured refinement which allows ladies to be themselves persuaded to bestow their approval rather than simply being taken for granted by the winner of the fight there and then, on the spot and without further ado. When men voted for votes for women they had a woman stood beside them watching them vote. Some with rolling pins and some with sweet, pensive pouts and all stations in between, all around and in every direction as far as the eye can see. Those men swung the vote.

And think of the allocation of resources being squandered on such silly doings which could be re-allocated for other purposes. The mind boggles. Wrinkle avoidance research springs to mind as a starting point for a cascade of ideas which I would never have known existed had they not been so forcefully presented to me from the time I began to notice such wonderful manifestations as a result of often overhearing discussions about one particular manifestion behind its owner's back. Little boys may well be seen and not heard but that doesn't stop them seeing and hearing and too much of not being seen and heard causes forgetfulness as of a fly on the wall. Not that there were any flies on my mother and her circle. A bug is better because I didn't have a camera.

Something along those lines.

But if the thread does result in a letter to the Whitehouse that must be a good thing if what has been alleged is true. I'm pretty confident that every sports man and woman will sign on the bottom if it is true.

Thanks for your more civil tone in your response to my last post. I shall try and return the favour.

Of course you'd have had reason to put me on your ignore list. I do kind of rehash the same old points several times in hope of getting a reaction. You have gone further in life than I have, and I have to congratulate you. But please be aware that the only reason I started insulting you was because you came onto the thread out of nowhere and called me "******* pathetic". Had you given a more justified and civil challenge to me then I would not have started the insults. But I feel it necessary to defend my own interests on this kind of thread when I'm being attacked for my views. It is of course easier to attack a person on the computer than to their face and I do it quite a bit on here but not in real life. Perhaps I am a coward who has not really grown up for real and is still living in the resentment and anger of his childhood. Please be aware that I have put changing this on my New Year's resolution list and I will try harder in the next decade. I am also trying to enter a real relationship by the end of next year. It's been six years since I last had a girlfriend, my dearest Cheryl, but now she has moved on from me I guess it is time I should do the same. However, some people find it harder to move on than others. I do. I really liked that girl. We were both really shy you know. We got to know each other at University and during the holidays I would go and stay with her and we would practice our German together. I still think of her quite a lot. I do wonder sometimes if I'll ever find another girl which means quite as much to me as she did but I'll stay optimistic. Perhaps one day, like you I will be married and have a nice family of my own. But keep in mind although some may rise over their experiences very quickly, others don't, and being rejected by Cheryl around the end of my University time really did get me down.

And no, it wasn't because I was still sore over childhood experiences, it was because I seemed a bit too obsessed with more trivial things like Eighties music for her liking. Just to let you know. I still hear from her every now and again but I doubt she'll be running back to me anytime soon. Just to let you know about THAT too.

To conclude, I shall continue to have a pop at jocks every now and again but not you. You have succeeded in "owning" me. I have to congratulate you. You are mostly right - giving back the abuse the jocks gave me does not really solve anything, it just makes me no better than them and I don't want to feel I have gained tendencies like my old abusers. But I do get sports rammed down my throat a lot from people at work and it's largely cause of that why I get sick of them - I live in England, and over here, we're mad on soccer. Everyone and their dog seems to be a soccer fan. The World Cup's next year so I'll have to let off some steam then.

My main problem is not the sports, but the people who put them before anything else and regard them as some sort of an extremist religion - if you don't share the same manic passion for the game, you are to be exterminated! I know this doesn't apply for most sports fans but it does for more than you may think.

Best regards,
i_like_1981

This is a new and improved Cyclo.
I 've never seen him like this, before this thread.
I 've cyber-known Cyclo for years n years, during which he demeaned
himself as a semi-air headed, semi-jerk. I had him on Ignore for
several months; he was a borderline case for Ignore.

In this thread, I see that I misjudged Cyclo.
He manifests himself in this new incarnation as a decent and honorable GENTLEMAN
who is superbly articulate and is very capable of clear, logical and cogent thought.

This is a Christmas ` miracle.

I never really knew him.






1981,
I believe that it resolves itself to this:
there are fellows of weak intellectual power,
and relatively inferior analytical proficiency,
who feel insecure from that fact.
Some of them have well-developed musculature
and relatively larger skeletal frames to carry that musculature.

People enjoy doing what thay do well.
In their case, it is athletic competition.
Their feelings of doubt and perhaps self-loathing or
contempt for themselves because of their relatively feeble intellects
move them to strike out in jealousy and in envy of the intellectual talent
shown by others in their classes in school.

In addition to them,
there can be other fellows who are indeed intellectually well-endowed
and who LIKE to involve themselves in sports.
This does not subvert their mental abilities,
nor does it pervert their personalities into jealousy,
nor sadism nor bad manners.

I will re-iterate that crimes (including assault)
shoud be referred by their victims to the police for criminal prosecution.
The perpetrators can also be sued tortiously
for compensatory damages and for punitive damages.

The perpetrators and the hosting schools can also be sued in equity
for injunctions restraining them from outrageous demands or egregious conduct
(such as demanding of handicapped people that thay join in physical endeavors
that exceed their abilities, or that unreasonably strain them, according to medical evidence).
The victims shoud certainly consult legal counsel.

I 'm pretty sure that thay have lawyers in England.



David

"I never really knew him."

go figger...

I gotta say:
I LIKE posting on this forum
and the only reason that I am able to do so is Robert 's creative efforts.
Robert has my GRATITUDE and my HIGH ESTEEM,
in addition to my astonishment at his having been able to succeed
in the face of the severe and oppressive circumstances of his early years.

I DO have many years of formal education,
and I absolutely coud never even consider creating such a forum as this.

Thank u, Robert!
I hope that u had a very Merry Christmas
and that u will have an extremely Happy New Year!!!




David

That is the funniest European condescension about American football I've read.

I think a lot of this is due to overstatement and insults. This didn't start with a reasonable criticism of sporting culture. There certainly is a lot of negatives to find there, but this started with a broad brush painting sports fans as "brain-dead" and "ignorant". This was an overstatement that the discussion would have to overcome to begin to be reasonable.

And though it claims otherwise there's also more than a bit of intolerance in the originating arguments. It says there is "something wrong" with sports fans who collect memorabilia and who put such importance on it but then goes on to curse sports interrupting one's favorite television shows. Thing is, there's a lot of negatives to television culture too, and it seems almost like intentional irony to me to criticize sports fans for their devotion to their sporting entertainment because it interrupts one's favorite TV show. If sports are so inconsequential then what makes one's favorite TV show so worthy of devotion?



I can certainly see how sporting culture can contribute to bullying. I personally find the whole high-school football worship, cheerleaders, home coming king and queen and other such staples of American school to be huge contributors to the bullying in American school.

But in other countries I've seen sports fail to generate such negative effects on the culture and for this reason I've come to feel that the main problem is essentially the manufactured celebrity that American high schools generate. They spend millions not just on sporting equipment but also on the generation of the spectacle. A football field costs nothing, it's the stadium and the spectacle that costs millions. In American schools I found a gaudy level of such spectacle. The schools themselves make the popular kids and yes sports, especially football, traditionally play a large role in this.

But in other countries, where schools are less an exhibition of individualism and incessant competition things go much more smoothly. There are some key factors I personally identify as primary contributors to the difference:

1) American schools are huge. In most of the world I've lived in schools are much smaller and more local (i.e. more schools within walking distance). Violence and aggression strongly correlate with population density for a reason, you should expect more social friction when you put larger groups together in smaller settings.

School is often the largest microcosm an American will live in, right when they are least prepared to deal with it appropriately. The sheer size of American schools make it a culture shock to go from a kid at home to going to school and really dumb stuff can happen with people in large groups through social phenomenon such as diffusion of responsibility.

2) American culture is positively steeped in high-school hero worship. Through traditions such as sports, cheer leading, and other popularity contests like the home coming queen or the high-school politics, the schools themselves set the stage for a high-school upper and lower class.

And to hammer home my point about small schools I want to share an anecdote from Costa Rica. A friend of mine was president of her class (of under 50 students) by buying a bag of candy to distribute. At that end of the size spectrum the popularity contests are less brutal in terms of level of competition.

3) The adults, once out of this jungle, often reinforce and romanticize this part of the culture with things high school films and reunions that seek to make this intense school experience live on. It's like the climax of American life is the high-school social extravaganza.



I think this is an important distinction as well, which is why I personally find the eradication of sports and all to be overstatement.



Well to be honest I am not a huge fan of either, and in this particular discussion there was ample stereotyping right from the start, calling sports fans brain dead and ignorant.



Kuvasz can be caustic. This, to use a sports metaphor cliché, is par for the course and doesn't really reflect this particular topic.




I completely agree with this sentiment. I personally don't agree that sports have no place in school like the original argument, because tying them together the way we do keep a lot of kids who like sports in school. In Brazil I saw young soccer players join professional clubs at very young ages (pre-teen) and skip school entirely. The career path to professional sports in America runs through school and even college. This is a positive in my opinion, but yes I don't think that the schools should be as involved in generating the spectacle side of things and creating the social classes within their schools.



I think this is a bad metaphor, Jim Crow laws were inherently wrong-headed themselves. But though I can't get behind this metaphor I can certainly agree that elements of American culture as it relates to sports generate social ills.



I was underwhelmed with the high school coaches I have known. In P.E. they'd basically just read the sports page and left us unsupervised. This did cause bullying because we'd do things like stop playing flag football and start tackling (I happened to take a lot of the bullying here but I was still a fan of the switch, because I had a lot of steam to blow off myself) but I think it was mostly due to incompetence and indifference.

I also had a football coach as my history teacher, and he'd write down the chapter numbers on the black board and then sit at the back of the class reading the sports page while we were to read the chapter and complete the exercises. I loved it because I could finish on my own pace and do my homework for other classes but I'd never seen such an incompetent and disinterested teacher in my short school experience.

But that being said, I still don't know if I can agree that the coaches wouldn't mind their athletes being bullies. I like the maxim of not ascribing to malice that which can just as reasonably be explained by incompetence.



I wouldn't take that throwaway insult too seriously if I were you. It's not gonna help the discussion any but neither is caring about it too much (like bullying, insults are further empowered by taking insult to them).

When the insults and stereotyping began to fly in the discussion itself the signal-to-noise ratio became less than ideal and the degradation of the quality of discussion that happens is why I speak out against it and that's why I think that even if someone else is throwing them it's best not to join in.

On a side note, this site isn't much of a sports haven, even the sports fans we have are generally the more cerebral types, and a part of me thinks it's hilarious that we managed to fight about sports. This has got to be the first real argument about sports in the history of this website.

That's an interesting comment.

There's a current thing here to amalgamate schools so that you end up with one big one, where there were four or five smaller ones.

It's a cost-cutting thing, though, of course, it's dressed up in all sorts of fancy language to make it look as though it is intended to benefit kids.

I have been thinking that this is going to make high school (and primary) even tougher for lots of kids, and have been concerned re bullying.

How big are you guys talking about going? In my ignorant layman's opinion I'd like to see schools at around 500 students per school.

Light Wizard took somebody to task on another thread for using an expression like that. "Having said that" I think it was.

What you need Bob is to read Veblen's Belief in Luck chapter in The Theory of the Leisure Class which will make you wonder why the liberal media cover sport at all.

Nothing is done in the educational bureaucracies to benefit the kids.

My school had 3600 students in it. Freshmen had their own building across the parking lot.



****, ours certainly didn't. It was common knowledge that nobody on the team was uncuttable. You didn't mess with the guy.

Although I will admit that, like many here, I heard he was the worst history teacher ever.

Cycloptichorn

Good question...well over 2,000 I'd say.