Welcome Sports Haters!

@aidan,

For the record, I’m a 59-year-old man. Beginning in the fall of 1960 when I started the 4th-grade in the state of Texas, I (along with all other students) was required by the school district to take exclusively sports-centered P.E. classes. I have not exaggerated one bit in my posts above, either in regard to my own P.E. experience or those of other nonathletic middle-aged men who have told me about their own. I have my share of weaknesses, but lying is not one of them.

No, I did not have the experience of having only a single P.E. teacher or coach for five years who just happened to be bad. My experience was institutional, not an exception to the rule. I will repeat: The P.E. classes were only about sports. There was no effort to promote exercise programs for the unfit. And physically weak boys and overweight boys, who were either ignored or viewed with contempt by the coaches, were often bullied. I cited instances of physically handicapped boys who were forced to take sports-centered P.E. who were subjected to physical bullying, which the coaches tolerated (and, for all I know, may have actually condoned). (They should have been exempted because of their physical handicaps. This is just common sense.) This went on for years, and it left emotional scars on these men. If it had happened to you, it would have impacted you the same way.

Again, I have to state what should be obvious to thinking people: Learning a sport is not the same as getting on an exercise program. The most efficient way for a physically unfit person to get into shape is to get on an exercise program, not to have sports shoved down his throat. Any medical doctor would tell you that, yet seemingly most of those who push mandatory P.E. K through 12 refuse to recognize this very important distinction. For example, an obese boy needs to do exercise that involves constant movement. If he is forced to play baseball (for example), how much exercise does he get? The answer is “Not very much.” Why? The answer should be obvious. He is not engaged in constant movement. What does take place is that his teammates resent his very presence on the team because he is a drag on their chances of winning the game, while he becomes embittered towards his teammates (who seem to have forgotten that he had no choice in the matter; in other words, he was assigned to their team and had to play against his will). This is what traditional sports-centered P.E. is all about. Forcing nonathletic kids to participate with athletic kids in competitive team sports is like transferring basic math students to a calculus class and expecting them to understand calculus. Not to mention the fact that different students have different physical fitness needs. Why can’t more people see this? If you can’t understand why some nonathletic men don’t support mandatory P.E. or might even hate sports (horrors!), then you’re just not listening.

Again, I strongly support any movement to reform P.E. I believe that traditional sports-centered P.E. should be retained for the athletic kids and those who just want to participate in sports AS AN ELECTIVE. If the nonathletic kids are to be required to take P.E., physical fitness classes should be available. If such classes are not available, then their parents can send them to a health club.

Just an interesting observation: When the innovative PE4Life program was set up in the Titusville, Pennsylvania, school district (replacing the tired traditional approach), bullying went down. “Jocks” and “techies” (nerds) actually started socializing with one another, instead of remaining in their own separate groups. Imagine that.

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@wmwcjr,

Quote:

If the nonathletic kids are to be required to take P.E., physical fitness classes should be available.

Such a class would very quickly be given a nice name. The Noddy Shop is one I've heard. The Coop.

And as a group they would be easier to be contemptuous of. It's tough I know. The school should have been placed under new management.

What they should do is work hard on their studies and get good jobs where they can enjoy pay-back time in later life when the sportsmen arrive as subordinates as a result of being distracted by silly ball games where the skills learned are only of use if someone is very good at them. Let their catharsis be in bitterness overflowing. For 40 years maybe.

1 Reply

@wmwcjr,

I didn't think you were lying about your experience- and now that you've said how old you are and where you grew up - what you say your P.E. experience was and what you're saying happened not only to you in an isolated instance, but to many other people on an ongoing everyday basis makes more sense to me. It certainly was a different time and place than when and where I took P.E. and overall the atmosphere in schools and ideas about a lot of things was very different.
People in Texas were still getting paddled in school for years there while when and where I went to school corporal punishment was against the law and had been for a long time.
I've always been very happy my father was transferred when he was.

But the fact remains that my experience is just as realistically indicative of an American P.E. experience as yours is. And I think you'll be encouraged to know that the emphasis is much more on personal fitness now in P.E. than it is on sports. The kids do roller blading, tai chi, yoga, salsa dancing....all sorts of different acitivities (in highschool P.E.) - it's not just baseball, basketball and touch football anymore.
I can't speak to how it is in Texas - it may still be the same as what you grew up with there, but Texas is different than the rest of the US in a lot of ways.
I don't think you can use Texas as indicating the typical for just about any subject you can think of.
(I'm not belittling or making fun of Texas - but I DO know they're a breed apart- and proud to be).

Quote:

And physically weak boys and overweight boys, who were either ignored or viewed with contempt by the coaches, were often bullied. I cited instances of physically handicapped boys who were forced to take sports-centered P.E. who were subjected to physical bullying, which the coaches tolerated (and, for all I know, may have actually condoned). (They should have been exempted because of their physical handicaps. This is just common sense.) This went on for years, and it left emotional scars on these men. If it had happened to you, it would have impacted you the same way.

Yes, I'm sorry if I seemed to minimize the effect something like this must have had- it's mostly that I can't imagine it happening, as I've never seen it, as a student or as a teacher. But then I was never in a male-only P.E. class - (although we did have coed P.E. all through school, but maybe the presence of girls made even the unathletic boys look like more desireable teammates to the athletic boys- I don't know - I guess that could have gone either way) .
But I'm happy to say that as a teacher, I've never worked with any coaches or P. E. teachers who would act that way and knowingly look away or condone students treating other students that way. It wouldn't be tolerated in this day and age - they'd most likely lose their job -and that's a good thing.

Quote:

If you can’t understand why some nonathletic men don’t support mandatory P.E. or might even hate sports (horrors!), then you’re just not listening.

I think I understand more fully now - although I've never thought that just because someone is a male they automatically have to support anything- much less something as trivial (in the larger scheme of things) as sports .

1 Reply

@spendius,

What does "Noddy" mean ?

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@wmwcjr,

Nothing that I wrote shoud be deemed to question your truthfulness.
That did not enter my mind.
I merely set forth a distinct experience in the matter.

As a libertarian American,
I am in sympathy with the philosophy that u have expressed.

(If I had been in your situation, in addition to refusal to participate,
litigation woud have sprung to mind; I have a history of being mildly litigious.)

David

1 Reply

@aidan,

Thank you. I’m glad you didn’t think I was being confrontational. And thanks for listening. I accept the reality of your own P.E. experience, and I’m delighted to hear that there have been some changes. You see, what’s so ironic is that in my mandatory P.E. classes I actually got very little exercise! With the exception of only two years of my early childhood (in Corning, New York), I’ve lived my entire life in Texas; so, I know Texas quite well. I certainly wouldn’t deny that in some respects we are a backward state.

At the risk of repeating myself, two years ago I started working with a succession of three personal trainers on a bodybuilding program at a local health club. All three of the trainers (young guys in their early 20s) have been great to work with. Even though they had strong athletic backgrounds, they didn’t have the denigrating “macho” attitudes that are culturally associated with one sport or another. Even though I was a nonathlete, each one really liked having me as a client because I did what they told me to do and worked hard. One of them said he bragged about me to the other trainers, and another said I was his favorite client. The workouts were therapeutic for me, both psychologically and physically.

I say this to the sports fans as someone who might be labeled as a sports “hater”: Despite my lack of interest in games, I admire athletic prowess, and respect athletic achievement; and I would never detract from your personal enjoyment of sports as either a spectator or a participant. But I have no use for arrogance, and don’t believe that I (or any other nonathletic guy) is somehow inferior or deficient simply because I didn’t play any ball games when I was a kid.

1 Reply

@wmwcjr,

wmwcjr wrote:

Thank you. I’m glad you didn’t think I was being confrontational.

With all respect: I believe that u shoud have been MORE confrontational;
perhaps with the aid of legal counsel. SHOW the spirit of Texas.
It is not the spirit of Texas to let people walk all over u,
whether thay r your employees on the public payroll, or not.

wmwcjr wrote:

At the risk of repeating myself, two years ago I started working
with a succession of three personal trainers on a bodybuilding
program at a local health club. All three of the trainers
(young guys in their early 20s) have been great to work with.
Even though they had strong athletic backgrounds, they didn’t
have the denigrating “macho” attitudes that are culturally
associated with one sport or another.

Thay damn well better NOT, if u r paying them for their expertise.

wmwcjr wrote:

I say this to the sports fans as someone who might be labeled as a sports “hater”:
Despite my lack of interest in games, I admire athletic prowess,
and respect athletic achievement; and I would never detract from
your personal enjoyment of sports as either a spectator or a participant.

I have. In specific, I 've pointed out to them that baseball is competing
to see who can run around in circles better than whom,
and I 've pointed out that when thay WIN, u get nothing;
when thay lose, u lose nothing; its an exercise in futility no matter WHAT happens.

David

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aidan and ceili

I can whole heartedly assure you wmwcjr's experience in PE was NOT an isolated incident.

In fact, when I started reading his post as to what it was like, I really wondered if perhaps we had gone to the same school, and might even have been classmates.

ok, I just gotta preface this with saying that all the people who have either said; "it wasn't like that in my school OR I stood up for those that weren't athletic OR that PE/sports was an opportunity to learn teamwork and fair play and all that other good stuff, OR that must have been an isolated incident (with or without a 'mean' teacher) OR any of the other comments about how those who don't like sports just aren't seeing things in the correct light must not have been looking at the wider picture.

If you disagree with me, fine.

Honestly? It's like a "not in my neighborhood" type feeling I'm getting from some. Well, guess what, it was in your neighborhood.
You may have been in PE class for years with other students that really, really didn't enjoy being there, but you just never knew it.

Remember the first time you found out someone you knew lived in a home where they were getting abused, or their mother was an alcoholic, or they just up and and killed themselves one day, and you thought "I never knew that was going on"
How about, as an adult, you find out something like the above, or maybe not so bad, or maybe a lot worse, about another adult, and you think "I never knew that was going on"

It doesn't have to be this all out bullying or horribly humiliating experience to justify someone saying they don't like sports/athletics, whatever you want to call it.
There aren't just 2 camps, there are all sorts of levels in between.

I can tell you that I hate hate hate.......hate hate hate going shopping with another person. But, on the occassions that I am shopping, and someone is with me, they don't know it. You just deal.

Just for the record, over the years I've had god knows how many different PE teachers, through elementary and high school.
I grew up in NJ too. Nowhere near the turnpike, I lived at the Shore.
Unfortunately, there weren't any kids that lived near me, so my first interactions with children were when school started. All I can guess is that these other kids must have learned the rules of whatever games before kindergarden, because no PE teacher, or anyone else ever taught me **** about what you were supposed to be doing.

It was like "we're going to play basketball" and suddenly you were, or, in my case, wasn't, as I was a stranger in a strange land.

Looking back, I would imagine it would have been glaringly obvious that I (and I'm sure others) did not have a clue as to what to do, where to go, when it was time to go the other way, when it was time to stop and start.
I don't remember any mean PE teachers. I don't remember any of my PE teachers at all.
I do know that none of them ever came up to me and even offered to teach me the rules of whatever it was we were doing.

I wouldn't have liked playing sports any more, but maybe it would have made the time go faster when I had some kind of an idea how long this was going to go on.

I liked English class.

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@chai2,

I don't doubt either of you had bad experiences. I had a pervert for a teacher during junior high who would only let us wear short shorts... We didn't wear gym uniforms though, that was saved for school sport teams.
I was merely pointing out that banning PE because of some bad experiences is a silly as forcing all kids to play basketball or football with the big boys. PE didn't have to be that painful and obviously some schools, districts, cities, school districts have learned their lesson and made it a better program.
I'm not shocked to hear any of this, we've all watched movies that have portrayed gym teachers as drill sargents and yet others that have had the most understanding coaches ever. I think many movie/screen writers were in the group of kids who hated gym class. Other wise you'd never see these jerks on the silver screen.
I recently read an article by Lebron James talking about his school basketball career. I was surprised to read that his school coaches were not teachers but men who had proved them selves coaching in other arenas.
For liability reasons alone, that would never happen in Canada, unless it was on a volunteer basis. However, in community sports or neighbourhood leagues the coaches are almost always a kids dad and usually have very little training, just a love of the game.

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@Ceili,

Hi. I never actually favored banning P.E. I just wanted it to be an elective. I didn't want to take away other students' rights. Even though none of them were friends of mine, I still wanted the athletic kids to have their P.E. classes. It's just that ... well, you know. My dad was totally nonathletic; so, I didn't have that kind of a background. And I was just a stupid, uninformed kid. So, I didn't know anything. I didn't know what to do. P.E. was just something unpleasant that I had to endure. :-)

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@chai2,

I know exactly what you're talking about, and I feel your pain.

My P.E. experience was duplicated in the private sector when that incompetent psychologist sent me to the white judo instructor (which you may remember from one or more previous posts of mine). (The reason why I identify him by his race is because I think that possibly Asians have more sense in this area.) Remember him? He's the one who claimed to have saved me from homosexuality. (My wife laughs.) I always felt like an outsider in his judo class; and when he promoted me to brown belt, I was convinced that he was being patronizing. Before I got my driver's license, my dad would drive me to his judo school. My decidedly nonathletic dad was extremely successful in his chosen field of architecture. The judo instructor, who looked down on all nonathletic men, would talk his ear off. (Years later I asked my dad if he had liked the judo instructor, and he said "No.") I'm convinced that he was jealous of my dad for being so successful. What a jerk!

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@OmSigDAVID,

The problem was that I was just a dumb widdle kid. ;-)

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

I don't doubt either of you had bad experiences. I had a pervert for a teacher during junior high who would only let us wear short shorts... We didn't wear gym uniforms though, that was saved for school sport teams.
I was merely pointing out that banning PE because of some bad experiences is a silly as forcing all kids to play basketball or football with the big boys. PE didn't have to be that painful and obviously some schools, districts, cities, school districts have learned their lesson and made it a better program.
I'm not shocked to hear any of this, we've all watched movies that have portrayed gym teachers as drill sargents and yet others that have had the most understanding coaches ever. I think many movie/screen writers were in the group of kids who hated gym class. Other wise you'd never see these jerks on the silver screen.
I recently read an article by Lebron James talking about his school basketball career. I was surprised to read that his school coaches were not teachers but men who had proved them selves coaching in other arenas.
For liability reasons alone, that would never happen in Canada, unless it was on a volunteer basis. However, in community sports or neighbourhood leagues the coaches are almost always a kids dad and usually have very little training, just a love of the game.

wow.....

I feel like you did not read a word I wrote.

oh well, no biggie.

1 Reply

@wmwcjr,

wmwcjr wrote:

Hi. I never actually favored banning P.E. I just wanted it to be an elective. I didn't want to take away other students' rights. Even though none of them were friends of mine, I still wanted the athletic kids to have their P.E. classes. It's just that ... well, you know. My dad was totally nonathletic; so, I didn't have that kind of a background. And I was just a stupid, uninformed kid. So, I didn't know anything. I didn't know what to do. P.E. was just something unpleasant that I had to endure. :-)

yeah...no one in my family had the slighted interest in sports.
who was I supposed to learn the rules of the game from?

really, not complaining.

it's all just a total "whatever"

pain?
I guess it felt like it then, looking up at the clock and thinking "god, 15 more minutes of this crap".
but today? barely a memeory. I really had to think about it to remember.

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@wmwcjr,

Quote:

. P.E. was just something unpleasant that I had to endure.

That was my attitude to school generally. It is meant to be like that as a preparation for life. How else do you take animalistic little monsters and turn them into respectable and efficient citizens? Schools are an expensive investment society makes in the future. They are not play pens. Turn them into playpens and society will disintegrate.

I daresay your father treated the concrete pourers and hod carriers with a degree of disrespect. His claim to a vastly higher income and a larger and better appointed office etc. is serious bullying.

I think you should loosen this chip on your shoulder wm and take the ways of the world in your stride. They are unlikely to change much.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
. P.E. was just something unpleasant that I had to endure.

That was my attitude to school generally. It is meant to be like that as a preparation for life. How else do you take animalistic little monsters and turn them into respectable and efficient citizens? Schools are an expensive investment society makes in the future. They are not play pens. Turn them into playpens and society will disintegrate.

I daresay your father treated the concrete pourers and hod carriers with a degree of disrespect.
His claim to a vastly higher income and a larger and better appointed office etc. is serious bullying.

I think you should loosen this chip on your shoulder wm and take the ways of the world in your stride.
They are unlikely to change much.

Spendius, u appear not to be familiar with the words that u use,
unless u think that his father confronted and intimidated the hod carriers.
Perhaps I missed where he said that happened.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

He didn't say it happened in the manner you suggested and neither did I. But his salary and working conditions compared to that of the workers provides him with a longer life expectancy and better health. On average I mean. Which is serious bullying.

You're being obtuse. You don't need to confront and intimidate workers directly in their face to be confronting them and intimidating them.

1 Reply

@spendius,

Actually, my dad treated the concrete pourers and hod carriers with respect. I know that for a fact. I saw it. He was just as far from being a bully as you could imagine. In fact, he probably was bullied himself when he was a kid because of the stutttering problem he had. Because of his own humble roots, he respected the dignity of all people. Even after he became wealthy, he would tell me, "Don't trust rich people." My dad rejected racism before any civil rights legislation was passed and punished me the very few times I used the n-word when I was in elementary school. My parents once hired a black lady to work for them as a maid. My dad demanded that I treat her with respect, which was unheard of in those times. She was treated as an equal by both of my parents. He taught me by his own actions to detest arrogance.

Having a high salary didn't prolong his life. He still had health problems: heart attack, diabetes. It's quite possible the stress of all his responsibilities actually shortened his life.

Your advice to loosen the chip on my shoulder is respected, but you don't know me in real life. I'm actually very friendly and prefer to have a good laugh. Yes, I do have a tone of anger in my comments about P.E.; but you have no idea exactly what accounts for the anger right now. I do know what the reasons are because I finally know myself well enough, but it's mostly private business. I'm definitely not referring to you now in what I'm about to say, but the tendency of one or more members of this website to psychoanalyze total strangers posting at this website just because they don't like their opinions is a bit too much.

I felt the liberty to rant about bad P.E. because of the announced topic of this thread. I wouldn't have wasted my time going to a sports website to do the same. (Notice how some sports fans go where they're not wanted.) If you had read all of my comments, you also would have noticed that I was speaking up for others who had it considerably worse than I did. In a society such as ours where change is possible (as opposed to countries whose societies are completely static), people should speak up to fight corruption and injustices.

2 Replies

@wmwcjr,

I was making a general point.

The non-athletic kids at my school weren't bullied at all and sport and athletics had a very high priority as I think they do in most priest run schools. We had no PE at all. Only team games.

Maybe there's a recruitment problem in American education.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

He didn't say it happened in the manner you suggested and neither did I.
But his salary and working conditions compared to that of the workers provides him
with a longer life expectancy and better health. On average I mean. Which is serious bullying.

Nonsense. That is not even trivial bullying, nor bullying of any kind.
I take it that English is not your first language ?

David

2 Replies

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