Obama..... not religious?

Oh, please. Don't pretend that you don't enjoy it when you get people riled up about what "God believes".


Why is your penis so small?

Thanks for sharing your feelings, DrewDad. (And please disregard my last question to you -- you already answered it, thanks!)

Another strawman! Well...actually I didn't think you had the ethics necessary to fess up that you are bullshitting.




Next you're gonna tell people its salty!

Your bathing habits are not part of this discussion.

Your willingness to answer question aren't either!

I answered every question asked of me! And I've answered every question asked of me here.

If you see any questions unanswered by me...point 'em out. I don't think you will find any.

Just got back from my class on Nietzsche and Feuerbach -- fascinating stuff...



You're entitled to your opinion. I disagree.



I would say that if you took an Orthodox (Fundamentalist) view that these are the Words of God and are absolute and last for all time. The Bible (or Torah, in this case) was complete and unchanging in it's message; that the words of the Bible/Torah are speaking the Law of God; that the Bible is a blueprint that must be followed. The Conservative view would be one of a covenantal or contractual relationship with God. That it is important to understand scripture, but each individual makes his own covenant with God. For the Reformed, the stories of the Bible/Torah are there for guidance, but they are stories (myths, in the mythical or mystical sense) that can bring knowledge but are interpreted with a view of the modern world.

Reformed Judaism on homosexuality:




Unlike others, I don't claim that any one perspective is more "valid" than any other. Nor do I claim that they are all invalid. They are all perspectives that apply to both Judaism and Christianity. Whatever floats your boat, baby. Just stay outta my shorts.

Gonna be scarce today.

JPB wrote: But why are you evading the questions both Thomas and I are asking? They are germane.

The covenant people do or do not make with the god does not change what the god (the god of the Bible) says offends him. Unless the covenant says, “I am not going to pay any attention to what you say offends you”...then no matter what the covenant...the god still feels both that slavery is moral...and that homosexual conduct is not.

There is no way around that...at least none that I can see.

You seem to think there is...in fact, you are asserting that there is.

So tell us...how do you interpret the subject passages so that they DO NOT SAY that the god of the Bible considers slavery to be moral...and homosexual conduct to be immoral?

Why would one need to?

You need a wider vision to see beyond the Orthodox/Fundamental view, Frank. If you pick certain passages and take them as single statements, the way you and Thomas are doing, then it's difficult to see the bigger view. The Orthodox/Fundamentalist view is exactly what you and Thomas have been saying. But taken as a whole, Leviticus can be read as "Be a good person." The Fundamentalist view can never change with the times. Homosexuality is a sin and you will rot in hell in eternal damnation if you violate my edict, so says God. But, "Be a good person." can and does change with the times.

I personally don't care what motivates someone to be a good person. I do care that we take care of each other as human beings. If the guy handing out bowls of soup in a soup kitchen is there because he's a sinner and needs to repent, or if he's there because he has a covenant with the god of his choosing that includes serving soup to the poor, or if he's there because his faith is one that embraces social outreach (as does Obama's), or if he's there as an atheist/agnostic and wants to help out. All I care is that the hungry guy on the other end of the outreached arm gets a bowl of soup.

Keep in mind that Orthodoxy and Fundamentalism are fairly new constructs, mostly as a response to the Reform movement. The Reformers turned tradition on it's head. Some felt they went too far left and swung back in the other direction -- some would say they swung too far. The American Fundamentalist movement (and my understanding is that it's fairly unique to America) is a right-wing response to what some perceived as society turning away from God. The same is true for Orthodox Judaism



We only recently started talking about "crusades" and "spreading Christianity" here. My problem with religion isn't in how one lives their own lives, it's how they expect someone else to live theirs.

Don't fall into Frank's trap and think that "the God of the Bible" that he references has any relation to "the God that you worship/believe in".

We don't need to.

But you are saying it can be done...so I'm calling your bluff.

Obviously I think you are full of ****. But you might surprise me.

So do it or don't do it. But don't pretend that I said it "needs" to be done.

Did I? I think you're wrong.

I said one interprets the Bible, yes. JPB answered that adequately.

I'm hardly going to argue with you over the dialogue of a character in a story, though.

JBP wrote:




Are you kidding me...or are you kidding yourself?

Have you ever read Leviticus, JPB?

Have you ever read Deuteronomy?

I have read both of those books several times.

There's a whole bunch of things that can characterize those two books...but “Be a good person” is a JOKE!

“If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.”  Leviticus 20-13

 "Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."  Leviticus 25:44ff

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen tohis father or mother, and will not obey them even though they chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where ...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff

"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you." Deuteronomy 20:10

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. [Deuteronomy 13:7-12]

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." [Deuteronomy 13:13-19]

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. [Leviticus 20:27]

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. [Deuteronomy 17:12]

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. [Leviticus 24:10-16]

"If you are not careful to observe every word of the law which is written in this book, and to revere the glorious and awesome name of the Lord, your God, he will smite you and your descendants with severe and constant blows, malignant and lasting maladies….(It goes on for another paragraph or so.)  Deuteronomy 28:58
 
The first of the Ten Commandments:
 
"I, the Lord, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation, but bestowing mercy, down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments."   Deuteronomy 5:6ff

And for good measure, here's one from Exodus:

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' [Exodus 31:12-15]


Yeah...it could be read as "Be a good person"...but only someone who absolutely felt a compulsion to do so...motivated probably by dread of the vengence of the god of the Bible...would go through the tortured logic to do so.

Or, by someone who was raised in a liberal christian tradition who, without fear of God or torture of the soul, can equate the message of both the old and new testaments to be one and the same. Love thy neighbor as thyself.

And, yes, I've read them. I've also read scripture of many other faith traditions. Religion, in and of itself, isn't a bad thing. How one allows it to determine how he interacts with his fellow man can be.

Okay...it may surprise you, but I am to agree with you completely here.

But I am not sure how it impacts on what we've been discussing here.

What I've been discussing is Obama's religiosity and the concept that he doesn't seem very religious or christian, and is perhaps an atheist in drag for political gain. I've tried to highlight that his religion is one of a liberal christian tradition that looks at the good we can do for each other rather than focus on judging others and their actions.

I've been a loud critic here of the Fundamentalist agenda of creating an American christian theocracy. I agree that it's possible that anyone other than an avowed christian would be unelectable to the presidency. I disagree that there is anything in his words or actions that indicate that he is anything other than what he presents himself to be.

JPB...this discussion has come a long way from what you just mentioned...and you and I have both been part of the digression.

As for the initial intent of the thread...well, I listened to the tape Wolf offered and commented. I stand by my first remarks on it:





I think his comments were an extraordinarily brave move...and I applaud him for it. It certainly is an example of him using what religion he has to further collegiality. And I don't think it is inappropriate to question if he is very religious at all. If he actually is an agnostic or atheist...I doubt seriously he would reveal that. No harm has come from the speculation...and I don't think anybody has said definitively that he is other than what he says he is.

By the way...I had to control myself not to start another thread on this issue...because from my perspective as an agnostic...constantly seeing agnostics and atheists getting short shrift in speeches by politicians...and constantly having to deal with the "god this...god that" that seems to be a necessary ingredient to any political speech in this country...

...that speech...and Obama's similar comments at his inauguration...

...are a breath of fresh air I've never before tasted.